When Student Affairs Pros Become College...

What happens when student affairs professionals become college parents themselves? The latest episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" tackles this unique blend of personal and professional experience, yielding candid and relatable insights for anyone working in higher education—or embarking on the college transition with their own child.

Host Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Dr. Gourjoine Wade and Miriam Khalil, both seasoned student affairs leaders, as they reflect on their experiences sending their own children off to university. Their stories illuminate the challenges, emotional dynamics, and surprising discoveries that arise when the boundaries between "the job" and "parenthood" blur in profound ways.

A core theme runs through the episode: The journey to college looks different for everyone, and no amount of professional expertise can fully prepare a parent for the emotional impact. Even though Dr. Gourjoine Wade had coached countless families through orientation, he shared that all of the professional advice went "blank" when it was his turn to drop off his daughter. Both Dr. Gourjoine Wade and Miriam Khalil note that their students—having grown up around campus life—were actually more prepared than many of their peers. This "insider knowledge" led to increased confidence for their children, demonstrating the subtle ways children absorb lessons from their parents' work.

Another important discussion centers on the balance between empowerment and involvement: how do you, as an expert, step back to let your own child take charge? Both guests emphasized the importance of encouraging independence, coaching their students through processes without taking over, and resisting the urge to leverage professional networks for shortcuts. It's about trusting the process—and the staff—just as they encourage other families to do.

The episode also confronts the role of privilege in the college journey, candidly acknowledging that not all families possess the same resources or insider knowledge. Dr. Gourjoine Wade and Miriam Khalil urge their student affairs colleagues to give grace to staff, offer support to fellow parents, and use their unique vantage point to enhance onboarding experiences for all.

Ultimately, this conversation shines a fresh light on how lived experience as a college parent can deepen empathy, inform more intentional practices, and bring both greater transparency and humanity to the world of student affairs.

If you're curious about how your colleagues are navigating college transitions with their own children, or simply want a heartfelt reminder of what families experience, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in and join the conversation!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed professionals wherever you happen to be. This is season 15, Enhancing the Career Pathways and Well-Being of Student Affairs Professionals. I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she/her/hers, your SA Voices from the Field host. Welcome back to Student Affairs Voices from the Field. Today, we have a really unique conversation to share with you between 2 student affairs professionals who are also sending their own young adult children to university this fall. So you're going to hear from them both as the administrators that they are in senior leadership positions in student affairs, as well as their perspective as parents.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:47]:
I really loved this dialogue. Our first guest is Miriam Khalil Yousuf Khalil. Miriam Khalil is a higher education professional with extensive experience in academic advising, student success, retention, and institutional effectiveness across the GCC region. She's advised diverse student populations across disciplines and partnered with senior academic leaders to advance student retention, accreditation, quality enhancement, and student engagement initiatives. Her expertise includes academic advising, the first-year experience, assessment, and data-informed decision-making to support student achievement. An active contributor to the student affairs profession, Midyem has authored and contributed to NASPA publications, including articles featured in the NASPA Global publication of 2026, and has presented at regional and international conferences. Miriam Khalil is the Regional Director of IACIS in the Middle East. Through her collaboration with NCADA, she has supported efforts to advance academic advising practices and professional development opportunities within the Middle East region.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:40]:
She currently serves as the Director of Academic Advising at Northwestern University in Qatar. Our next guest is Dr. Gorjwan M. Wade, who is a pioneering collegiate executive, higher education loyalist, student success champion, first-generation advocate, and talent cultivator with over 2 decades of transformative and inspirational shaping student access, achievement, and institutional excellence. Currently serving with the Alamo Colleges District as Vice President for Student Success at San Antonio College, Dr. Wade integrates strategy, compassion, and innovation to drive meaningful outcomes, fueling enrollment and retention growth, advancing first-generation persistence, and cultivating inclusive campus cultures where all students can thrive to build lives that they want. A proud first-generation college graduate originally from Louisiana and now rooted in Texas, Dr. Wade is nationally recognized for his outcomes-driven, data-informed, and student-centered leadership that challenges higher education to reimagine pathways for access, belonging, and student success.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:35]:
Throughout his career, he's designed scalable first-generation programs at HBCUs and HSIs, initiated enrollment and retention strategies that improved persistence and graduation outcomes at 4-year universities and community colleges, secured millions in grants and stewarded fundraising relationships to strengthen the student experiences at private liberal arts institutions, and amplified institutional impact through innovative digital storytelling nationwide. He's also deeply committed to developing the next generation of higher education leaders through mentoring and national service. Dr. Wade earned a Doctorate of Education in Higher Education Leadership and a Master of Science in Higher Education Administration and a Bachelor of Public Administration with a minor in Political Science from Grambling State University. At the core of his kind leadership philosophy is an ongoing dedication to authenticity, transparency, inclusive excellence, and putting people first, with students and his team always at the center of the mission, anchored by a steadfast belief in the life-changing power of education, a belief he also champions as a board leader for Dollar Match, where he advances national efforts to close the college opportunity gap for first-generation students. A lifelong believer in the transformational impact of learning, Dr. Wade shares this passion for education with his wife, Shara, a dedicated K-12 education leader. Together, they emphasize the importance of learning, leadership, and service in their family, raising 2 wonderful daughters who inspire their commitment to building a better future through education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:57]:
Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field. So excited to have you here, Gourjwan.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:04:01]:
I'm excited to be here. Thank you for the opportunity to have a conversation today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:04]:
And Miriam Khalil, we're also very excited to have you in from Qatar today.

Miriam Khalil [00:04:08]:
Thank you. And I'm very happy to be here and looking forward to the conversation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:13]:
This is an episode that I've been looking forward to recording for such a long time because I've got so many colleagues that are in the same boat. And it's a conversation we've been having, I think, in the profession for a while, but capturing it for SA Voices, I think, is going to give it some new perspective. And the topic today is student affairs professionals who are also sending their own students to university for the first time. There's so many things that we think about as professionals on our end as we're preparing to welcome students. I know on my campus, we just welcomed a whole bunch of new students and their families. And I know we have expectations for the experience that we're delivering for the students and their families, and I'm sure you do too. But then being on the other side and being the family that's being received, it's gotta just be such a wild different experience. So that's what we're gonna dig into today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]:
But before we go there, like to get to know you both just a little bit more. So, Gourjuan, starting with you, can you tell us how you got to your current seat in Texas?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:05:11]:
Absolutely. And thank you for everyone listening and having conversation with us today. So, I landed in Texas. Texas was not unfamiliar. Before that, I was in Louisiana. I was the AVP and eventually interim vice president at my undergrad alma mater, which was the same space that I did my work study. So, that's a whole nother conversation for another day. Ended up going to Texas Lutheran University as the VPSA.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:05:36]:
And then here at San Antonio College as the Vice President for Student Success. Before that, I was actually teaching as an adjunct here, and my students kind of coerced me into seeking the opportunity, just hearing their feedback. And then fast forward, and here I am today. So looking forward to our conversation and getting a chance to talk about all the things dad and student affairs and sending my kid off. So.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:00]:
Excellent. And Miriam, how about you? Hi.

Miriam Khalil [00:06:03]:
Thank you for hosting us. Well, prior to joining Northwestern Qatar in 2021, I was in the UAE where I was a senior academic advisor and an adjunct faculty in the School of Business and the School of Arts and Science at the American University in Dubai. So more than 10 years experience in academic advising, working with students from day one until graduation, and it's a profession that I really enjoy, although my background is in finance and banking, but I would always choose advising as a career.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:42]:
So why don't you go ahead and tell us about your now adult children who are students at university? Who are they and where did they go?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:06:50]:
Well, I'll start. For me, I've got one daughter, well, 2 daughters. My now college student who is a musical theater kid, you know, we started the process, I believe, kind of late. You know, for me, I'm a first-gen college student 3 times. So we felt, my wife and I, like she was also a first-gen student, that we were going into the process a little bit more prepared than we were. And we found that to be grossly inadequate from all things scholarship to all things about housing, res life, which is my background is housing and residence life. I was like, yeah, we got this, we're ready, let's go. And I was not ready.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:07:27]:
So we went on the college tours and all the things about a year and a half ago. She landed at the University of Texas at Arlington. pursuing her Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in musical theater. We rolled up there early in August and dropped her off. And, you know, we were both just kind of looking, my wife and I, like, I think we're ready for her to go. And she was looking at us like, we're ready for you. I'm ready for y'all to go. And, and that was it.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:07:54]:
You know, before the drop-off, you know, so many folks were like, you know, you're gonna cry, you're gonna be so intense, it's gonna be crazy. And we did not have those emotions. And I think for multiple reasons. One specifically, I think we had kind of prepared for it. You know, I have facilitated countless number of conversations at orientations, parent family orientations, talking about the transition and letting your kids go. And to be on that side of the spectrum now was really weird. So we dropped her off and she was good and we were good and we all rode off and, and that was it. And, you know, she came home for Labor Day, everything was great.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:08:28]:
She drove home, drove back. It's good. So, you know, for me it was, that was my firstborn child. You know, I had shared her journey in social media spaces, so people were familiar with where she was going and how she got there. So it was just an exciting time. Uh, it was not sad, right? I think for us it was just about almost kind of like a congratulatory thing. Like we had all collectively gotten her to that space and letting her kind of go off and be her best version of herself. And it was like a joyous time.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:08:56]:
So it didn't feel sad, still feel good. You know, she texts every now and then. Uh, I'm not one of those parents that are like, you better call me every day and check in. No, she texts, she checks in randomly. I'm good. So good to have her in her, her own space doing her own thing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:15]:
Ghorjawan, when you were in the process of kind of being on that receiving end of parent orientation from what is now UT Arlington, how was that experience knowing that usually you're the other person giving that presentation?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:09:30]:
It was kind of weird. Again, you know, so I've been in those spaces multiple times and But nowhere in this transition for me as a parent did I ever think about the things that I was telling other parents in orientation. It was like it all went blank. Like I, I had, uh, none of that stuff came to mind. None of the helicopter parents or, you know, the safety and security tips or the reminders to check in. None of that stuff came to my mind. It only came to me after I realized that she was gone. And then it was like, hmm.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:10:02]:
How am I gonna prepare for her being gone? What do I need to do? And my wife and I, we just kind of played it by ear. And, you know, again, I think my wife who was on the K-12 side of the education spectrum, she was very much, you know, make sure you call me every day and tell me how your classes are going. And for me, it was just kind of like, ah, you know, just go out there and YOLO, live your best life, have fun, you know, make good choices and do all the things that you feel like you need to do. And I feel like we have prepared her to go out and be the best version of herself. So I, I've been really content with that. And when I think about those conversations with parents, um, the tears and the, can I put my head on your shoulder at those type of orientation type events? I was like, I don't have that. And, and maybe it's because I'm a practitioner and I've been prepared more than the average parent. But it was, it was almost like a foreign concept when I thought about, you know, how I emotionally had prepared to to let her go.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:11:00]:
So it was just a weird thing. Very weird.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:02]:
Miriam Khalil, how about you? Tell us about your student.

Miriam Khalil [00:11:05]:
So my firstborn daughter is the one going to university next week. Next week?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:12]:
Congratulations.

Miriam Khalil [00:11:13]:
Yeah, because, thank you. It's a British curriculum, so they don't start early. She's going to Ulster University, but she chose the campus here in Qatar. So initially she wanted to go to Spain for her university education, But because she's not 18 yet, she had to change her, she had to change her plans. And then she's like, okay, I'll go to the UAE for education. She applied, got accepted, did all the exams. And then around April, she's like, mom, I don't think I'm ready to leave the house. And I'm like, what do you wanna do? She's like, I'm gonna apply to CUQ here.

Miriam Khalil [00:11:50]:
They have the major. I said, do what you want. So I like to make her own the decision that she makes, to be accountable for every single decision. So she applied on her own. I did not interfere with any application, anything. And then she's like, can we go have a tour at the university? I said, of course. Uh, we went there. She's happy.

Miriam Khalil [00:12:13]:
Uh, she'll be registering next week. Her orientation is next week. But what I found, because I mean, she has nothing to do this week, so she has been coming with me to work and she's been watching my conversations with the student and So I felt in a way our kids observe us while working, especially like the days we work remotely, they listen to our conversations with the students. So we are preparing them in a way. They're not new to what's happening. They know what to expect. So I believe they're really ready. And sometimes they feel that they can do our job.

Miriam Khalil [00:12:50]:
Like sometimes you have those conversations with students acting like an advisor, like she knows what she's doing.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:12:56]:
Yeah.

Miriam Khalil [00:12:57]:
I think we do a good job preparing our students, I mean, our kids who are now students to the next stage in life. I'm not experiencing her being out of the house. I might experience that in a year when she transfers. I don't think it's easy. And I come from a culture where we don't leave the house. I mean, when we go to college, like in Lebanon, I went to university, but I stayed with my parents. So if she ever decides to transfer and leave the country, then yeah, then I think it's not gonna be really easy for me as a parent and I'll be more worried.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:35]:
So when you're thinking about this process of transitioning your student to university, Miriam Khalil, you said that your student was probably more prepared than the average student. Ghorjwan, would you agree with that? You said, you talked about it from the parent perspective, but how about your student?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:13:48]:
Yeah, I felt that when you said that, Miriam Khalil, 'cause I agree 110%, you know, and I heard a lot of that when we took my daughter to orientation early early in the summer. And then she would come back from between the sessions and she was like, I don't really need this stuff. And I was like, why? She said, 'cause you've told me most of this stuff and I already know it. And I've seen it, you know, when I worked at, you know, Texas Lutheran University, as I said earlier, you know, I facilitated a lot of the conversations for orientation even at my previous institution before that. And she's always kind of been in tow, you know, as Miriam said, you know, our kids in this practitioner life, they're really kind of in tow with us for so many different things, not just athletic events and not just social events, but also the work, the meat and potatoes of what we really do, those conversations. And they pick up on those things. And she talked a lot about, you know, what she had heard and learned and saw and felt from just being around different college campuses. So it wasn't a foreign concept.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:14:44]:
Again, I think that's the great part of her being a second-gen student, right? Is that she's not going into this blind like myself and my wife were. You know, all those things were foreign concepts for us. But she is so much more prepared and she talks about that very frequently. You know how when we landed at move-in day, she had an idea of what the process was gonna be, 'cause I'd already kind of briefed her 'cause I've coordinated move-in days before. So all these things were kind of like, oh, she knew what to expect. And I think it helps with the anxiety of transitioning into a college space, not just for the student, but I think for the parents as well. You know, because we have, they've been with us living these experiences for so long. You know, I've worked in higher ed now, this is my 22nd year on and off between private student housing and just exclusively working on a campus.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:15:31]:
My kids have been there for most of that, so they are not foreign concepts for them. So I agree with that, you know, and I think that she was better prepared and is better prepared now to understand what office hours are and all those different nuances that we talk about in orientation and all these conversations. She goes into those things like, oh yeah, I should go to office hours because I need my instructors and my faculty to know who I am because they're valuing that. So yeah, that's huge benefit to our kids by us being in these roles. Absolutely.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:01]:
What about your own preparation in terms of your attending these orientation sessions? Gourjohan, we've already talked about you kind of knowing that you've been the one delivering these, but how did your own experiences change how you approached going into the spaces in terms of the questions you had or what you expected from the university?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:16:18]:
So I went into it with a lot of grace for my colleagues. Um, and I didn't ask a lot of questions. And, and part of that is because my daughter and I, we had conversations beforehand and she was like, don't be that person. Right? Don't, don't go into the space. You know, I know you know this stuff, but let the people do their job. So don't go asking and quizzing and being that guy. All right.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:41]:
So I was like, don't embarrass me, dad.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:16:43]:
Exactly. She was like, don't do that. You know it. I know you know it. Just let them do them. So I was, I was very intentional about that. I just kind of sat back in the space in a nice little corner in the room. My wife had some questions, but I think she was just kind of just showing off.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:16:59]:
But for me, I purposefully didn't ask a lot of things. I did kind of engage with colleagues post some of those public sessions and just kind of quiz them on some things and kind of say, hey, you know, tell me more about this, because I don't want to ask questions in the big setting and draw more attention. But I was very intentional about You know, respecting my colleagues and their craft, right? You know, because they're, they are the experts, they know what they're doing. And I, I did find myself taking a lot of mental and physical notes just about their different processes, right? You know, about what the tour experience was like, what was the information that was being shared and who was sharing it? You know, what did the space look like for the welcome center? So those type of things I was making a lot of notes about. But just from the parental standpoint of just kind of giving my colleagues a hard time and quizzing folks. I stood down, but I did post those sessions, also share good feedback so they can have that just from a standpoint of, you know, a fresh set of eyes who kind of is familiar with this work. This might be helpful. And a lot of them took that very positively.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:01]:
Miriam Khalil, how about you? How did your work change the way you approached the student experience?

Miriam Khalil [00:18:06]:
So of course I'm going to go there and ask about what I know best, which is academic advising. And when we had the tour in the university, I'm like, like, can you please take me to Student Affairs? So they showed me where Student Affairs is, and my question was like, how's she going to register for her classes? Is she going to choose her own timing? What is it? And they're like, no, no, no, no, she doesn't need to worry about that. We have modules set for all students in year 1, and she does not have to worry about that. Because again, it's a different curriculum from the one that I advise. So I tried as much as I can to understand how her first semester will go. But I mean, because first it was a transition for me. They take it as a year, not as semesters, because again, it's a British curriculum. And I'm like, oh, this is a learning curve for me.

Miriam Khalil [00:18:56]:
I need to learn now her curriculum to be up to date when she asked me questions. And what I did, I mean, I asked those questions, then I connected her with the Student Affairs team. I said, try to engage as much as I can with this office. see if there are student jobs that you can be part of so that you can meet people in the community and have friends here and enjoy your time at the university. Because she was very active at her school with, with social life, and she got an award when she finished Year 12 for her engagement with the school and all the activities. So I wanted her to continue and still be motivated to do that. But sometimes they don't know the first step, who to connect with in order to be engaged. So I just did this connection part, and I'm really hoping she has a fantastic year one at the university.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:53]:
Now, with all the expertise that you both bring to the table and knowing exactly, for the most part, how systems work or what students need to do to advocate for themselves, Talk to us about dancing that line between being the parent who knows exactly what needs to happen and empowering your student to take that action.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:20:10]:
Yeah, so that's a good one. I found myself in that, in that boat right before my daughter landed on campus because she was wanting to switch residence halls. And, you know, it was easy for me to want to jump in and say, oh, I know that person, let me reach out to them. But I was very intentional about, you know, this is how you go and find the information, and this is what you should say when you find that person to talk to. This is the process and how it should look, but you're gonna run point on that. I think that we as practitioners of our craft have a responsibility to, number one, still respect processes and people who are leading those processes on these different campuses. But also, you know, the coachable, teachable moments of empowering your kids to be able to, to be those self-advocates for themselves. Because that's just what we really should do.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:21:01]:
That's what we tell our students, right? We tell our students that, you know, you should be able to speak for yourself and formulate those emails and ask those really thoughtful questions to be your own best advocate. And I think we have to do those same things for our children. So, you know, for my daughter, it was very intentional to make sure she was prepared to do those things. And, you know, when she went through the process of the room change, she said, they tell me, they told me 2 weeks. I said, okay, so you should follow up in 2 weeks. And 3 weeks passed. And then we got to week 4. I said, well, you hadn't heard anything yet? She said, well, I didn't follow up.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:21:35]:
I said, okay, so you should reach out to somebody. And she did. And then the, the ball started to move a little bit. So again, I think it's important to be those advocates from our lens of encouraging and empowering them to really go out there and do these things on their own. You know, my, my daughter also had to, she needed to add a class because to keep her scholarship, She needed to really have about 15 to 16 hours each semester, and she was only at 13, you know. So we didn't go into the system and try to get her logged in and do it for her. We empowered her to say, you've gotta do these things on your own. And I think we've gotta really continue to press home those points.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:22:10]:
We can't practice what we preach. We, we gotta be mindful of that, right? We, we tell our students, our colleagues, the same stuff. I think it's important to tell our kids those same things, and it makes them a better student, and it makes the lives of our colleagues— much easier when they have students who are more prepared to handle these things on their own.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:28]:
You mentioned something really interesting, Gourjuan, which is that you personally know the person on the other side that could take that phone call and, and make that change. And I can imagine that is so tempting, um, just to be like, oh, hey, I know X, Y, and Z person. I can just, you know, I have them on LinkedIn and probably their phone number.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:22:48]:
Yeah, that's true. And, you know, it's like, You don't wanna ring that bell, so to speak, you know, although in the background you may have sent a text message and said, hey, my kid is trying to do these things, so just keep a lookout for it. But on the front end, she's running the show and encouraging her to continue to stay consistent in that advocacy. And I think it makes them better at the end of the day, better young adults and preparing them for life beyond the college campus. So there are lots of lessons in that that I think we have to practice for them.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:19]:
For sure. And, you know, just kind of keeping in our heads that, that social capital doesn't exist for all students and the realities of, you know, our work from those of us sitting in the seat versus our work when we're responding to our own students' need. And it's, I think it's an interesting dichotomy. Ultimately, the goal's always the same though, which is to support and help the student.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:23:41]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:42]:
Myrieme, how about your perspective on this?

Miriam Khalil [00:23:44]:
I completely agree. I mean, Um, I grew up with parents and with an educational system that said, figure it out. So I have this philosophy of figure it out, do your own research first, try to do it. But when you reach a point where you need help, ask for help. So, I try to leave her and do her things on her own, but when she hit a point where she needs me, what I do is to Refer her to the different resources that she could use. I don't like doing the work for her. I want her to learn and try to build her own path because I want her to be accountable and responsible. And I'm not the— I mean, if I do things for her, I'm not teaching her anything.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:31]:
So when you're thinking about teaching your students to advocate for themselves inside the university context, what does that sound like from a coaching perspective? Like, what advice would you give future parents who are also student affairs pros?

Miriam Khalil [00:24:45]:
Hmm.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:24:46]:
That's a good one. Giving grace, I think is important, you know, all around. For me, I try to approach this from that lens. You know, I'm very mindful that our people in the student affairs world and outside of our world work really, really hard to provide experiences and services for our students and their parents and families to really have the best experience that they can have. And that they don't do these things lightly, right? That there's intention behind why the orientation is laid out the way it is. There's intention behind why move-in day, move-in slots are created the way they are. And just working with our colleagues to remind them of that. Like, we are on the other side of that spectrum.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:25:34]:
Just give grace to the why behind some things and to not go in with that badge of I am so-and-so and I'm an expert in this, to question why people do things the way they do. But there's a way to have collegial conversations behind the scenes and share that feedback. I think that's very, very important. And to make sure that you're not creating little mini versions of you that go on campus and say that my dad or my mom is so-and-so and they know how to do that job. I think that's important that we don't create those little minions that go in there and cause ruckus for people. That's important. So I would just remind my colleagues to make sure that you're not sending emissaries to these campuses to cause grief and harm to people because your kid comes from a world because they know their parents know how to do the work. Don't be that person.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:26:25]:
I think it's important to give grace to our folks and to use those experiences that we gained from this work To empower our kids to really be good ambassadors when they get to campus so they can help other students with the knowledge that they know and not create havoc for folks.

Miriam Khalil [00:26:41]:
I fully agree with you. I mean, we need to teach our kids to respect the expertise of others. If they're not doing things the same way we do it, that doesn't mean they're doing the wrong thing. Different institutions have different cultures, different policies. And each person is in the best position to explain what happens within their own institution. So I'm not gonna go to another institution and teach them how to do things. And I don't expect them to come and teach me how to do things. Everybody has a context, so we have to respect the expertise of others and all the time and efforts they're putting in also supporting their students, including our kids in this case.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:27:24]:
Right. And, and, and I think it's also important, you know, I find myself being a, a parental ambassador at move-in day for my daughter because I heard some other parents that were kind of grumbling about some things and process-wise. So I would just kind of say, hey, you know, I know some of these things from my former life. Let me give you some insight to why this is probably happening. And it helped parents to kind of de-escalate as well. So I think we have a responsibility for the craft, right, to be Good stewards and ambassadors to help people understand the why behind these things and not, you know, we know from move-in day, folks have been up since all times of the morning, up the day beforehand, checking keys, rosters, all these things. There's a lot that goes into it. The average parent doesn't know, and honestly, they really don't care.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:28:13]:
So I think for us, it's like, how can I, knowing what my colleagues went into doing to pull this off today, a massive undertaking on a move-in day. Let me share with these other parents, hey y'all, it's just not as simple as you think it is. There's more to it. And most folks understand that and they appreciate the context and they de-escalate and they bring it down a notch. Now that's not everybody, but I do think when we talk about, you know, our profession, we have a responsibility as parents in the profession to also help other people who are from the outside to kind of see why things work the way they work. And that helps, you know, in informal settings, I think, more than those formal settings that we're in.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:55]:
How about your mentality changes in terms of how you view your student going from that high school environment where they're living at home or might continue to live at home, but now that transition to their early stages of adulthood? What have you had to do differently to think about your student and how to support them?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:29:13]:
So we give my daughter, she gets an allowance each month. We increased it a little bit, although she's no longer doing stuff around the house. So it doesn't seem very fair, but you know, we, we did not want her to kind of be stressing about little things. Right. You know, she's got meal plans, all that stuff, the dining dollars. She went and got her own job on campus. So she's very independent thinking. And I think we prepared her to, to move.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:29:41]:
like that because we don't want her to expect any handouts. You know, I think it's important for young people to be prepared as much as possible for life after college. And I think all these things help them to do that, you know, and she is in a situation where she doesn't have to stress about a lot of things. So these things just come natural for her to be prepared. You know, there are a lot of kids that are traversing our campuses that don't have the luxury of a direct deposit in their account each month or not having to worry about gas or, or food. So she comes from privilege that I didn't come from. So we wanna prepare her to, to utilize those things that she has to not only just give back to others, but to be better prepared for life after college. And, you know, I think it's very, very important.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:30:28]:
She, she told me about, um, some folks in her, her friend group, you know, They, tuition is paid and, you know, they don't have any stress. You know, we are on tuition payment plans, right? And to help her understand that this is something that you are doing that we're all sacrificing for you to have. And it's not about being grateful. It's not about being privileged. It's not about being, you know, any of those things. It's just about appreciating where you are, what you have, and knowing that somebody is not in that same situation. Um, good or bad. And just preparing good citizens to be on our different college campuses, whether it's a community college, uh, or R1 or whatever the case may be.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:31:08]:
And just making sure that she understands that these are all life lessons for life after college, right? You'll, you'll make friends, you'll lose friends, you'll have drama. All those things will happen. How are you prepared to deal with them? And I think we've done, my wife and I, a really good job in trying to prepare for those things that we know will be coming, but also preparing her to emotionally deal with things that we can't plan for. And I think that's one of the most important things that we should be doing in our roles as just parent and practitioner is preparing our young person for all the inevitabilities that could come their way.

Miriam Khalil [00:31:44]:
You know, I mean, just want to raise a slightly different point. Like this year, more than any other year in my career, I felt I relate more with the first years because There's a lot of resemblance with my daughter, like their needs, the things that they complain about, the things that make them happy. So I feel having her at home was, I mean, is also teaching me more about her generation, uh, to be more equipped when working with them and knowing more what, what's important and what matters for them. So I'm looking at the other way here in the relationship. I, I believe she was preparing me better mentally. mentally to, you know, with my first-year students. And on the other hand, as you mentioned, my daughter as well. I mean, she's staying with me.

Miriam Khalil [00:32:41]:
We cover everything for her, but then she's like, if I start learning how to drive, would you get me a car? And I'm like, of course not. You'll use the metro like any other university student. I'm not buying you a car. Yeah. Like everything else is covered. Just take this metro and you'll get there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:00]:
What has being the parent of a first-year student taught you about your practice in student affairs, higher education? And inversely, what does bringing that student to campus mean for your practice in terms of what you learned from that institution?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:33:16]:
Hmm. I think for me, it has, it has made me a better practitioner for a lot of reasons, you know, because I'm now more attentive to I've always been very mindful of the college-going experience as a group event, you know, that it's not just the student, it's everybody that is attached to that student coming to college and trying to really focus on what that experience looks and feels like for all the people involved. Now I'm, I'm very much in tune to that a little bit more. So I'm very mindful of parent and family orientations and And what the intentionality needs to be behind those, you know, and what we need to really be focused on. And that it really shouldn't be in many ways a one-size-fits-all approach. I saw that and listened to parents when I took my daughter to her orientation. You could just see and feel it from just different pockets in the space that some people were like fish outta water. Others were like, this is great.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:34:16]:
How do we carve out an experience of onboarding for students, no matter where they come from and who they are, and being very targeted and strategic with that. So that's one of the key takeaways for me from that lens. The other piece is very much listening more to what students tell us they wanna see at these different experiences, right? You know, we, we give out the swag, We have the backgrounds for pictures and photos. We have the stuff all around campus, but is that for us or for students, right? Like what, what is that stuff? Is, are we just doing that because we've always done it? And trying to be very intentional with what does the experience look like when you're coming over the hill? And I said coming over the hill from my undergrad, you know, there's a hill when you come over it, you, you see the campus once you come down the hill. What does that look and feel like for our individual campuses when you come over the hill? that ah when you come to our spaces? And have we asked stakeholders what that should look like, right? You know, we did that at a previous institution. We got some folks in a room and said, what does this— what should it feel like when you first come to campus? And now, as I've seen that from a seat as a parent transitioning a student to campus, I get it more than I did beforehand and trying to be very intentional about what that looks and feels like. So I've had great takeaways from the parent seat now that I can use as a practitioner. And I'm really looking forward to kind of putting some of those things in place.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:35:51]:
And we've already started some small things, but I'm really excited about what I've learned as a parent now of a college-going student to help me in my work.

Miriam Khalil [00:36:00]:
Yeah, I agree. We just learn what's important and what matters through those interactions because we can relate more. Again, it's different. When you have your, you're sending your own to, to the university, it's slightly different. You sympathize more.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:20]:
What's harder, receiving thousands of first-year students or sending your own student to university for the first time?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:36:27]:
Receiving for me. Yeah. Receiving for me and, and full, full transparency. The drop-off transition for me went much better than I thought it was going to. And I think I listened to so many other people that said, oh, you're gonna cry. You're gonna do this. And we were just really excited and proud, right? I think I think we had gotten all the tears out from the senior year stuff, you know, the, the, the videos and the senior send-offs and all those things. It was like, oh my God, that was the emotional tug right there.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:36:55]:
But the, the college part was kind of like, wow, look what we did. Right? And there was this immense level of pride more than anything. So I would definitely—

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:05]:
Yeah.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:37:06]:
I'll take that any day over the, the 1,000 people coming with all kinds of gripes and grumbles and some excitement, Yeah, no, uh-uh. I'll take that any day.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:17]:
Yeah.

Miriam Khalil [00:37:18]:
And you think, how did this happen? Like when I look at my daughter, I can't believe, I mean, she's going to university. Honestly, I don't know how those years passed.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:37:27]:
So fast.

Miriam Khalil [00:37:28]:
But, but really, she, she, she made me a really, really proud mom. She'd not give me any hard time anyway, going to school or doing everything or applying to university. She's a great kid. And on the receiving part, I enjoy receiving students and I do cry during their convocation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:49]:
Yeah, same.

Miriam Khalil [00:37:51]:
Because also, I mean, there are other parents out there who are also proud of those students and they come from different backgrounds, different journeys, different stories. And sometimes, you know, they display some of those stories during convocation and it really gets me emotional. I mean, because sometimes our kids might have an easy path, but there are a lot of kids out there who did not enjoy what our kids have. And it took a lot of effort to get them to university.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:38:28]:
Yeah, I would agree with that full-heartedly. And I will tear up in a minute. I'm very connected to my emotions in this work, you know, because I see the power of what education does. And I would agree with Miriam Khalil. I'll cry at an orientation, a welcome event, just thinking about what students went through to be in those spaces with us. But with my own kids, you're like, all right, she's outta here. We'll see her later.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:54]:
Both of you have held leadership positions in student affairs. I'm wondering how these experiences might have changed Or changed your viewpoint on how you supervise team members who are sending students to college?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:07]:
Hmm.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:39:07]:
That's a good one. I actually have a colleague who also sent her daughter to college this semester, so we would have multiple conversations about what that looks and feels like. I've always tried to be a person that's very attentive to the needs of my team outside of the workspace and making sure that they have space and opportunity to balance all things home with all things work. And that has not changed for me. If anything, I'm more sensitive to making sure when we're planning things around the start of the semester, being very, very intentional about what that looks like for my folks and making sure that they know, don't stress about the stuff that we got going on here. These are once in a lifetime home events that you have to be there for, right?

Miriam Khalil [00:39:54]:
Yes.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:39:54]:
I don't want people worrying about what's happening at work when they should be trying to make the last minute Target run to go drop their kid off at college. So, you know, just trying to give people space and grace to focus on the now of what that feels like, because everybody processes it differently. And I never want to be that boss that gives people a hard time to say, you know what, you can't focus on that because I need you at my meeting. No, I don't want to be that person. So.

Miriam Khalil [00:40:19]:
Yeah, it's once in a lifetime. So we need to offer flexibility and empathy and give them space to enjoy this moment with their kids. And come back to work happy.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:40:32]:
That's it. And have my shoulder prepared for folks who need to lean on it. That's it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:39]:
One of the staff members I work with just sent their first student to kindergarten this week.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:45]:
Oh.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:46]:
So they were seeing transition of these university students, but then also sending their student for the very first time.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:40:51]:
Yeah, that's a whole different type of, wow. That's a tough one.

Miriam Khalil [00:40:56]:
The kindergarten. I remember speaking of this, my son was, I think, 4 weeks old when I sent him to daycare because I had no option. And it was so weird because I cry easily. And that day I did not cry. And the supervisor, she's like, you're not gonna cry? You're dropping your son here? And I'm like, isn't he in safe hands? And she looked at me, she's like, I'm like, yeah, I said, okay.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:22]:
Fair enough.

Miriam Khalil [00:41:23]:
When I remember that moment, I'm like, why? But sometimes when you're under pressure and you have to do things, you just do it and emotions come later.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:34]:
I'm gonna transition us to our theme questions for the season. They're a little bit of a different flavor than the conversation we've had so far, but with both of you having tremendous expertise in the field, very much looking forward to your thoughts. So, our first question is, what's one easy thing and one hard thing that a supervisor can do to enhance the career pathway of the people they're charged with leading?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:41:57]:
That's an easy one. Just be easy to deal with, right? I think that, you know, there's no long drawn-out, you know, professorial response to this one for me. I think it's, if you are easy to deal with, then folks will be able to manage all the things, life and work, from you as a leader of a team. You know, I lead from a space of kind leadership, and I think from that lens, People always take priority, and kind leadership is not a sign of being weak. It's not being, you know, easy on people. It's just being a good human. And I think that those folks make the best leaders. And when you do that, you ready folks to be able to accomplish any work-related goals without stressing about things that are impacted at home.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:42:40]:
And if we can continue to do that and have more leaders that take that lead, then we will have a profession that will outlast all of the drama that we could have by just having good people leading.

Miriam Khalil [00:42:54]:
I would say just show up, be present, and offer different ways for people to communicate with you. Don't create barriers and create a trusting environment where people can approach you without a second thought and be the support that they need in their work. But showing up is really, I mean, being present mentally and physically present is very, very important.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:43:27]:
Yes, I agree with that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:29]:
And our second question, what might you want vice presidents of student affairs to consider regarding the holistic wellbeing of student affairs professionals that perhaps they're not already thinking about?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:43:40]:
I think for me, it's, we get so caught up in the work that we really forget that the leadership seat has so much impact on people outside of work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:52]:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:43:53]:
And, and always being mindful of that. And I'm not talking about, you know, the decisions of reporting structure, or this is the assignment or the task. I'm talking about just being a, a good person to people. And not losing sight of how we got in these seats and understanding that there's such immense responsibility for people when you're in leadership roles that go far beyond the work expectations that people carry home, how you treat them in the workspace, and that, that requires us, or it should require us to show up as our best genuine, authentic selves. And to just be good to people. I'll just continue to beat that point home because I really think that's the key to everything is that when folks pull up to their offices or their campuses and they sit in the car dreading going into a space, what does the leader do to impact that feeling? And I think it's important for us to be the opposite of that. Like, people should be excited to come to work and to come to our campuses and support our colleagues and, and love on our students. That starts with leadership and, and, and reminding our colleagues to always keep that front of mind.

Miriam Khalil [00:45:03]:
I would say, I mean, we all know that they have a lot of responsibilities to take care of, but if they can be intentional in creating spaces for people at different levels in their career to share ideas, feedback, like, listen, sometimes all people want is to be heard.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:23]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:29]:
Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. The 2026 NASPA Institute for New Vice Presidents for Student Affairs is happening December 6th through the 9th on Amelia Island in Florida. The NASPA Institute for New Vice Presidents for Student Affairs is a foundational faculty-led learning and networking experience that prepares new VPSAs to be strategic decision makers. Strategic decision makers, highly effective managers, and transformational leaders. This professional development opportunity is designed for first-time VPSAs and other highest-ranking senior student affairs officers on campus, such as a vice chancellor and deans of students, depending on organizational structure, who have not assumed office or are in the first 2 years of their first VPSA position. Participants must be the highest-ranking student affairs officer on their campus. The early registration deadline ends ends on October 30th, 2026, and featured speakers include Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:46:34]:
Amelia Parnell, the president of NASPA, and more. Some of the learning outcomes that you'll find in this, in this institute include examining leadership values and competencies, strengthening cross-functional collaboration, navigating institutional change and strategy, and building and sustaining a network of peers. Following the institute, There will be a 2026 NASPA VPSA Winter Convenion, also on Amelia Island, from December 9th through the 11th. On these dates, NASPA will convene VPSAs at Amelia Island for 3 days of learning and networking in a setting carefully designed to facilitate peer-to-peer exploration of the most pressing, current, and emerging challenges facing student affairs leaders and other campus executives, and other campus executives, their institutions, and higher education more broadly. The convening will also provide the rare opportunity for reflection and rejuvenation in a community of peers. The co-conveners of the convening are Pauline Burke, Vice President for Student Affairs at Stonehill College, Jason Piña, Senior Vice President for University Life at New York University, and Deandra Mall, Vice Chancellor for Student Life at the University of Colorado Boulder. A reminder that the NASPA 2027 Strategies Conference is happening January 7th through the 9th. The NASPA Strategies Conference provides student affairs practitioners with the knowledge and skills to effectively address collegiate alcohol and drug misuse prevention, mental health, sexual violence prevention and response, peer education, and wellbeing through a variety of comprehensive and integrative approaches.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:48:14]:
The conference brings together individuals with interests in all of these different academic areas, All of these different areas that impact the student experience. And if you've never explored this conference before, it is an amazing opportunity to be able to come together with people with like interests, to learn, to grow, and to be able to build a network to be able to draw from for your own, for the things that you're trying to create and sustain on your own campuses. The early bird registration deadline for this conference is October 20th, 2026. So there you— so you still have time to be able to get in during the early bird rate. And I encourage you to go to the NASPA website to find out more about the program and the schedule and to learn to see whether or not this conference is the right fit for you. Go to events.naspa.org to learn more. Finally today, I want to encourage you to go to the NASPA website to take a look at the NASPA blog. Inside the NASPA blog are articles that are submitted from individuals throughout the association that talk about their own experiences and also things that they are doing to be able to assist with the student experience on their campuses.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:49:29]:
And one really great article that came out in September is from Sarah Harris of Baylor University, where she reflects on navigating NASPA as a doctoral student. Many of you may have been doctoral students at one point or may want to be a doctoral student in the future. And Sarah does a great job of being able to talk about her own experience with NASPA as she has been a doctoral student. To find the NASPA blog, it's very easy. Go to naspa.org, and when you get there, go under the latest to blog, and you can find all the different blog articles listed right there. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back, within one of the centers or the divisions of the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:50:38]:
And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and And the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:51:32]:
Chris, thank you so much for keeping us informed on what's going in and around NASPA. It's always a pleasure to hear from you and keeping us informed. And Medium and Gourjwan, we have reached our famous lightning round where I've got 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Are you both ready to do this?

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:51:50]:
Let's go.

Miriam Khalil [00:51:51]:
Ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:51:51]:
All right. Question number 1, if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music I Did It My Way.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:51:57]:
T.I., let them know.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:51:59]:
Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Miriam Khalil [00:52:03]:
An artist.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:52:04]:
I wanted to be an Air Force pilot.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:52:05]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Miriam Khalil [00:52:09]:
It's an old colleague, actually, Dr. Ashmaoui. He was the Dean of Engineering. He taught me how to do advising.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:52:16]:
I will say Dr. Rick Gallo, previous president and supervisor, who also was my commencement speaker when I was an undergraduate.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:52:23]:
Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Miriam Khalil [00:52:27]:
I mean, all the NASPA publications.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:52:30]:
I'm keeping The Caring University close by. I think Kevin's amazing, and I'm trying to keep that one close because I think it's very applicable these days more than ever.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:52:38]:
Shout out to Dr. Kevin McClure. We just had him on the pod a couple of months ago. So if you're interested in hearing that conversation, go ahead and head back to our episode releases from the spring. Number 5, the best TV show that you've been binging lately.

Miriam Khalil [00:52:51]:
I've only been watching the news recently.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:52:54]:
I can't get off of Game of Thrones. I'm a Game of Thrones fan. I've just rewatched the original series all over again. It's still amazing. So Game of Thrones.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:53:01]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Miriam Khalil [00:53:06]:
Matt Markin, the academic advising podcast, The Adventures in Academic Advising.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:53:11]:
I'm a news connoisseur, so Pod Save America is one of my top podcasts.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:53:16]:
And finally, number 7, any shoutouts you'd like to give either personal or professional?

Miriam Khalil [00:53:21]:
Of course, I'll give a shout out to my daughter for making me proud and to my team at work for, I mean, we completed second week of classes. They were amazing.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:53:32]:
Definitely shout out my daughter for just being the best version of anything I can expect her to be. My wife is starting a new job this year as a principal, so she's had a very amazing start to her year. Kind of crazy with the foot injury, but she's out there. And to my colleagues, Not just Miriam here on this pod, but just, you know, you, Jill, and all of our folks. August is always crazy. September is like crazy. But as we're just trying to navigate all the things, just wanna shout out all of our folks to keep showing up and doing the work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:53:58]:
It's been a pleasure getting to know you both a little bit more on the pod today. If anyone would like to connect with you after this airs, how can they find you?

Miriam Khalil [00:54:05]:
On LinkedIn. And my personal email is miriamkhalil@yahoo.com.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:54:13]:
Yeah. And you can find me out there on social media, specifically on LinkedIn, and it'll track me down from all the other spaces. Dr. Gourjoe Iemwade, G-O-U-R-J-O-I-E-M-W-A-D-E on LinkedIn. And we look forward to having more connections and follows to continue to talk about our work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:54:31]:
Thank you both so much for sharing your stories and your voices with us today.

Dr. Gourjoine Wade [00:54:35]:
Thank y'all.

Miriam Khalil [00:54:36]:
Thank you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:54:37]:
This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is only made possible because of you, our listeners and our members. We continue to be so grateful that you choose to spend your time with us season after season. If you'd like to reach us here at the show, you can email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. If you're interested in appearing on the show yourself, please do contact us.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:55:06]:
We'd love it if you spend a moment Take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening from now. It really does help us in the student affairs community, as well as the podcasting community to help our show grow. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint and New York University London for your support as we create this project.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:55:31]:
Catch you next time.