So who boycotted and who just didn’t get invited? Yes, we’re rounding out the Met Gala gossip with a rundown of protests (SJP?), basic-b*tch heartbreak (Hugh & Sutton) and bathroom selfies (alllll the hot ones).
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Plus, who actually won in the finally-finished court battle of Lively vs Baldoni vs Lively?
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AUTO GENERATED TRANSCRIPT:
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, sixth of May. I'm Holly Wainwright and the first thing I'm going to do, the first order of business, very simple out louder is if you love your show, please vote for us in the upcoming Australian Audio Awards as a People's Choice category. It's really straightforward. We're going to put a link in the show notes, We're probably going to put it on social We're going to put it everywhere. We would love your support to help us get there. That is the end of my manifesto for the day.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I just would like to say as a lazy girl that there are all these things to fill out.
Speaker 3: You only have to fill us out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to do everything is just tick Mama Mia out Loud.
Speaker 3: So important for the lazy girls out there, and as as a bossy girl, I just concur with Holly. I know you can make that ask of people, and I think that's a great step towards greet our self assertive.
Speaker 1: I'm growing, I'm growing, Amelia Growing. I'm Amelia Lester and I'm Claire Stephen and here's what's made our agenda for today. So now that it's all over and many damning text messages scatter the ruins of what was the biggest celebrity story for a couple of years, Just who did win in the whole? Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni court case drama.
Speaker 3: Plus Cameron Diaz is a mother again at fifty three, and Holly has some thoughts.
Speaker 2: And veteran broadcaster James Valentine filmed the last year of his life for the ABC, and between a living wake and his openness around voluntary assisted dying, he's opened a conversation around what it means to die a good death.
Speaker 1: But first, Amelia Lester, the Mecgala.
Speaker 3: Did it feel different this year? A lot of people said that it did. Amy Odell, a fashion writer, wrote in her background newsletter that the Metgala was all money, no soul, and she wasn't alone in this criticism. Basically, people are saying that because Jeff Bezos and his wife Lauren Sanchez Bezos sponsored the event, it just started to feel a little craven, a little gross, and less fun than it used to be. So there were a lot of protests in New York. In the lead up to the event, they were all centered around Amazon's labor practices, its environmental damage. And then there are those who say, no, that's not true. The mech color's always been about rich people giving their money towards a good cause, which is the Metropolitan Museum's Costume Institute. And look, they did raise a lot of money on Monday night. The Bezos has bought the event for about ten million dollars, but then the event itself raised about forty one million. This is US dollars, which is a lot for this event. It's apparently kind of record breaking. So are we just complaining about nothing, Holly? Do you feel like celebrities stayed away? Did they agree that this was a sort of off event this year?
Speaker 1: So I'm going to give you a list of the celebrities who people say boycotted, because none of the people so far who everyone is saying has boycott had actually verbalized that they were boycott.
Speaker 3: Well, we are boycotted, which we just had to take a stand because.
Speaker 1: I do feel a little bit like what soul when you said it's all money those salt like, I do feel a bit that I don't think this is the first year. It has been pointed out in the culture, particularly since trump Ism and all those things, that this feels very hunger games. Yes, yes, and I know although there's a more direct link here, you know, with the Bezos is buying it. I do feel like Jeff sort of bought it for Lauren as a gift, which is a nice gift. Nice, but it feels more avert. So anyway, let's look at this because when I was watching it on Tuesday and then I did a subscriber episode with me as straight afterwards, I was like, well, all the celebrities are there, like Beyonce's there. All the famous people I was expecting to be there were there.
Speaker 2: Well, actually a lot of famous feom we didn't expect to be there were there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then it was pointed out to me who was not Billie Eilish. Now that tracks because she doesn't like billionaires, and she remembers she gave a speech a while ago where she said, you lot give more of your money away. So I don't think she would have been either welcome or willing to go, because Jeff might have worried that she was going to shake him down in the bathroom to share more of his money. Zoe Saldana, she is somebody who is usually there. She was not there. She is almost as rich as the billionaires. She is an unbelievably well paid actress because of her Marvel and Avatar connections. So Zoe's at home count of dollars. Olivia Rodrigo that tracks too. She is political, That would not be surprising. She's in the middle of an album promo, so you might have usually expected her to be there. Lady Gaga an interesting one because she could have been expected to be there because she's in The Devil Wears prior of Too and the rest of the Well. Meryl wasn't there, but Meryl never goes, so that's not surprising. But Anne Hath the way Emily Blunt Stanley Tucci were all there.
Speaker 2: Stanley Tucci with Emily blount sister, it's always fun.
Speaker 1: So maybe Gaga, but also she's kind of said lately that she's going to focus on promoting things she wants to promote rather than just being around. Lewis Hamilton come on, like he's literally dating Kim Kardashian, who's extremely bezos adjacent. I don't think that was a political.
Speaker 3: Let's get to the big guns. Some were missing, right, some who we might have realized. Sarah Jessica Parker.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, Sarah Jessica I reckon. That is probably I would say that's almost definitely a boycott. But she went to support Anna at a dinner, but she didn't.
Speaker 3: Go to the There was a dinner on the weekend before the gala. It probably would have been more fun.
Speaker 1: Anyways, she said anything, No, she hasn't, but she I think she was in support of the New New York mayor. Right, And obviously he didn't go, but then I wouldn't have expected him to go, and he did post about it. They posted a series of let's sell a the real heroes of fashion and you know, celebrated workers behind the scenes and particular designers and things. So yes, so Sarah Jessica Parker I reckon could be a boycott. But then they're saying, you know, j Lo, I don't think Jalo was boycotting. I just think she's tired.
Speaker 3: Harry Styles.
Speaker 1: Harry Styles is in the middle of record of rehearsing for his tour. He's in a studio in bethnal Green running through it. Not that I've been stalking him. Justin Bieber, he's just done Coachella. Boy needs to lie down. Miley Taylor Swift, she never goes, and I don't think she's so. I think that some of the boycott cots are not boy I.
Speaker 3: Think that's right. But it's interesting that some of the tech billionaires it clearly got to them a little bit. So it's interesting that Jeff did not walk the red carpet with Lauren. That's very unusual. They do everything together. We've learned this from various pieces about them and Lauren's dress being very boring. Do we think that was intentional.
Speaker 1: A little bit understated for Lauren, Yeah, but I think it was had a very specific art reference. It was the same dress as someone called Madame X and it's like scandalous women.
Speaker 3: Yep. It's interesting though, because Jeff did walk the carpet in twenty thirteen when Amazon sponsored the event. There was no outrage back then when Amazon sponsored the event and he walked with Mackenzie then Mackenzie Bezos his wife at the time. Mark Zuckerberg also made his Met Gala debut with his wife, Priscilla Chan, and they also didn't walk the red carpet, which I thought was interesting because it's kind of like, well, you want to be at the glamorous event, but you don't want the attention of being there.
Speaker 1: Do you think they might have been encouraged not to.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone encourages Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos to do anything would have worked exactly. But there were some tech willionaires who did walk the carpet. Google founder Sergei Brinn. He showed up on the red carpet with his girlfriend. Her name is Gaylyn Gilbert Soto. The New York Times describes her as a con conservative gut health influencer.
Speaker 1: That is one of the six job title Claire.
Speaker 3: Do you think that there's something inherently conservative about gut health?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because gut health is very don't take antibiotics and don't take antibiotics is very That's what it's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which used to be a sort of crunchy hippie vibe, but these days has come back around it.
Speaker 3: I thought it was just you know, drink your com your chart, but no, it means it can.
Speaker 2: Be very I feel like there's it's a short road from like gut health gut health to to anti vacs. Don't ever give your children antibiotics with my sour crow.
Speaker 3: And of course I'm AROUNDA was there. I just have to add she was there with Snapchat founder Evanstein on the carpet, of course.
Speaker 1: Possibly the biggest gun that I haven't mentioned though, is Zendaya. She does always go. Usually she didn't go, and that read like a boycott. And some people are saying, if your boycotting, say you're boycotting. I don't think so necessarily. You don't want to necessarily make everything about your politics. But I just have one question. I think that big charity galas of all types have always been, have always reflected the moment therein and they've always been a path to accessing status in a particular society. Watch the Gilded Age, It's all about that.
Speaker 3: And Nixon notably said that she thought it was great that the mayor didn't go.
Speaker 1: Yes, but like you know, you're reflecting the time. So you're going a big gala ball is the way you get all the fancy people together. This being a tech bro billionaire ball is very reflective of the moment we're living in, right, So is it surprising in any way in the nineteen eighties New York society. It was all about glitz and flash and Donald Trump, and now we're like again, I don't know. I kind of feel like, what did we expect to happen?
Speaker 3: No, that's right, But I think that the group that people are most angry at it's not the people who went in their pretty dresses. It's not the people who didn't go and stay quiet about it. It's the people who went but then tried to have their cake and eat it too. See.
Speaker 2: I'm not as frustrated about this because Sarah Paulson is getting a hole at a crap because she wore a dress that then and then had a blindfold that was a dollar bill, and it was people like it's making a statement about about like eating the rich.
Speaker 3: Well, she herself said that it was a statement about the one.
Speaker 2: Besides yes, and and I thought that was like a far swing. But the dress is actually called like the one percent by the artist, the designer who designed it, and the mask was called blinded by Money, and it was a statement on greed and corruption that comes with extreme power. I think it's a little bit unfair to look at her and say, well, you've got a net worth of twelve million dollars at which how does anyone calculate anyone's net worth on the internet? But you have a net worth of that you're at this event, how dare you then make a protest when it's like, well, isn't that exactly how how you do it?
Speaker 3: Don't you go in? And well, people do have a history of using that platform. So Alexandra Ocazio Cortez, who is a Democratic congresswoman from New York, famously wore a dress on the Megala red carpet a couple of years ago which said tax the rich. But people actually have the same criticism for her. To your point, Holly, the met Gala in some corners has always been seen as a kind of repulsive show of excess and decadence, and she got a lot of aoc got a lot of flak for even attending the event back then, reading the canapasey while saying.
Speaker 1: You guys are discussing while Charlie free directions.
Speaker 2: But if you're not there, you don't have a microphone to say anything about the event, do you know? Well, I guess you do. I guess like Vende could opposed to something on Instagram.
Speaker 3: If you want Zendaya not going definitely took the air out of the room when that announcement came out, And I guess it wasn't an announcement so much as a news update. Everyone kind of went, that's big. When Zendeia's not there, it's big.
Speaker 2: Because she's always one of the coolest on the carpet. Does something really original, remember that, like bloody light up dress and she.
Speaker 3: Oh, but there was a bathroom selfie. Some things always stay the same, right, and you saw this by Yes, it's always an iconic bathroom selfie. It's always the thing you want to look for. And there was an amazing one that had you know, the Margo Robbie all the people in it. But one of the things that was most striking about that And so I saw that in the wild last night and I was like, why is there an exceptionally beautiful woman in the middle of that who is wearing a quarter zip sweatshirt? I was like, was she at that party?
Speaker 1: And then it's having a lot of headlines today because she is actually a very famous model.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually love the story behind this. Her name is Bavitha Mandava and she that what she wore was a quarterzip jumper essentially and what looked like jeans. It turns out they weren't just any jeans. The jeans were made with silk muslin and had a blue denim effect. My jeans today have a blue denim effect. And it's a very important iconic look because she opened Chanell's show in December, which was on the New York City Subway, wearing essentially that outfit, and the fashion world lost their mind. That show was like considered extremely groundbreaking, and she was the first Indian model to open a Chanel show and she is now the first South Asian ambassador for Chanel. And incidentally, did you notice that Margot Robbie, who was also Chanel ambassador, It was right next to her in that photo. So Chanell must have been just so happy about the whole thing.
Speaker 1: I know, but it just she just looked so out of place.
Speaker 3: But that's what made it so good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I was like wandered into the shop. But she also read all about it and I was amazing. Yet she didn't have to have a bubble machine boobs.
Speaker 3: And then that look that she wore on the Chanel catwalk was actually a nod in turn to how she was discovered. I love this so much. She was a grad student m YU and she was discovered on the New York City subway waiting for a train. One would imagine probably wearing a similar outfit to the one she is now wearing in a much more fabulous incarnation at the metgala.
Speaker 1: But you were obsessed with another red carpet walk.
Speaker 2: Yes, because I am a basic bitch. If, like I swear, if there was like a thermometer for like, what's what does the basic bitch think about anything that's happening in the world right now? It comes over me and it's like bing bing bing bing bing because I saw the red carpet photos of Hugh Jackman in Suton Foster and I think I was sitting opposite you and Holly and I.
Speaker 3: Said, oh oh, was like I don't and I'm like, howm my.
Speaker 1: Here has it been?
Speaker 3: Now? Not that many at least well he was.
Speaker 2: Hugh Jackman was on the Red carpet with Debory Furnace in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: My group chats are very divided on this. Some love the two of them together and some are talking about deb Prowley.
Speaker 1: Do you have to not debut your relationship after a divorce five years, ten years? What do we want?
Speaker 2: There are no rules, but I am allowed to go oh poor deb Oh, no, I hate that I am allowed. And then the tabloids, because again I'm a basic bitch. The tabloids were like, hey, basic bitches, We've made up a story for you. So there are sources in Inverata commas who say that Debrale Furnace was a huge fan of the event and the decision to bring Sutton Foster was a final blow to deb And what I didn't realize when I went really deep on this was some Foster's wearing a ring, like they think that you proposed in January and they think they're going to have some trend in your wedding.
Speaker 1: And is that all are not allowed? He's not allowed to marry again, not ever, not ever.
Speaker 3: I I don't know about that.
Speaker 1: How do you know that, Deborah Lee Furness. This is what I don't like about this narrative is it victimizes a woman who maybe is totally done with that, you know what I mean. She obviously she made up some statements that made it clear she was not happy when that relationship broke down, But again three years ago, so now she might be living her absolute best life. Thank god I don't have to go to the met gala with that guy.
Speaker 3: She disagrees politically too. We don't know anything about it, like she was kind of famously a conservative political voice because he is the godparent of Rupert Murdock and Wendy Dang's children. Also, he's very close with Avanka Trump. So no one was surprised to see Hugh at the slightly maga codd metgala.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, he's unfair, And I know no one's crying for the celebrities, but I think it's unfair to brand everybody who was at that red carpet as maga.
Speaker 3: Co Oh no, no, no, I did too, But I just I'm saying that he's not exactly Alexandra Orcasio Cortez. No one would be expecting him to make a big political statement about the taxing the rich. No, he's very like to promote.
Speaker 1: In a moment, what the heck was all that Baldoni Lively business about? If we've both basically ended with nobody winning and no money changing hands. So moments before one Blake Lively swept onto the met gala carpet looking a bit like Cinderella, very trademark minus the bluebird. She didn't happen. She always said exactly body, She's pretty good all that stuff. But moments before that, a statement dropped into the inboxes of major press outlets, including People, New York Times and so on, and it read the end product the movie. It ends with Us is a source of pride to all of us who worked to bring it to life. And with no context, Everyone's like, why are we reading this? Raising awareness and making a meaningful impact in the lives of domestic violence survivors and all survivors is a goal that we stand behind. It becomes clear this is a joint statement from Blake Lively's team and Justin Baldoni's team about the court case we've all been obsessed about for years. We acknowledge the process, presented challenges, did it.
Speaker 3: Recollections and recognized concerns raised by mes Lively deserved to be heard.
Speaker 1: We remain firmly committed to workplaces free of improprieties and unproductive environments. This is one of those statements that so many lawyers were involved in drafting that it.
Speaker 3: I hate an unproductive environment and I'm with that.
Speaker 1: That's fair. It is our sincere hope that this statement brings closure and allows all involved to move forward constructively and in peace, including a respectful environment online. And in the hope of moving forward constructively and in peace, Blake goes to the met gal Yeah, yep. Now we'll get to whether or not they got their respectful environment online, But just a very quick catch up, because we would be here for a year if we went into all the ins and outs of what's been going on here. But it all started when Blake Lively. Do I need to explain who she is? Significant star actress, possessor of wonderful hair, one half of a very powerful Hollywood power couple, made a movie called It Ends with Us, based on one of the best selling books in the past decade by Colleen Hoover.
Speaker 2: And you guys are weird about it because I said this morning that it's objectively one of the worst movies I've ever seen. And you guys, it's fine. You guys were so mad well. I didn't stop you so mad well.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to that in a minute. The thing is is that making a movie based on one of the best selling books of the decade is smart business and lots of people wanted to do it. But the man who owned the rights was Justin Baldoni, who's a lesser known dude. He's an actor, producer, self proclaimed feminist. Done. Some Ted talks about it.
Speaker 3: Everything I know about this man I've learned against my will exactly done.
Speaker 1: Some Ted talks about it podcast with Liz Plank something something something. Anyway, the movie itself is about domestic balance. That is not a mystery or a surprise at his front and center in the plot. The movie got made, and the movie was a huge hit, proving Claire Stephens wrong.
Speaker 3: All I need to say.
Speaker 1: Against the modest production budget of twenty five million, it grossed around three hundred and fifty one million dollars. Huge movie, right, But before the hit part happened, obviously, it was obvious that things were for apart. Behind the scenes, everything had gone very very wrong. We're not going to take you through because again I know Klas Stevens has a PowerPoint on this somewhere. You It went very deep at the time. You were a great source of it.
Speaker 3: It was great. A lot of this was going down.
Speaker 2: I think maybe just as I submitted my books, and my reward to myself was finish your book and you can read all the legal poculars.
Speaker 1: Yes, and there was this press tour that was like separate red carpets and warring factions and all this stuff. And then in December twenty twenty four, Lively sued Baldoni, accusing him of harassment, sexual misconduct, and a smear campaign on the set of their movie. She claimed that Baldoni conspired with publicists to preemptively destroy her reputation, hence the dodgy press tour after she privately accused him of sexually harassing her on the movie set. There were a lot of damning texts released, all hell broke loose. Then Baldoni countersued. He basically alleged that Lively and her husband Ryan Reynolds always wanted to take over this movie, the control of the script, to the edit, all the things that they had it in for him, and they used their very famous friends to intimidate and harass him.
Speaker 3: I'll never forget the email that when unanswered, that she sent to Matt Damon.
Speaker 1: Oh, I know. There were a lot of damning texts revealed.
Speaker 2: Again, sorry, the one to Ben Affleck where she like, oh, she just made an awkward joke about how she had sent the email to Matt Damon and how great Matt Damon was, and I was like, honey, that's like Ben Affleck's biggest point of in security is comparing himself to Matt Damon and you don't know the idiots and your correspondence with Ben.
Speaker 1: And so here we are suddenly, just weeks before this mess was all going to go to court, all these cases have been it.
Speaker 3: Hadn't even gone to court.
Speaker 1: No, some things had been dropped dropped. So first of all, Baldoni's case against Lively got dropped, and some elements of Lively's case against him got like so there was all that was stuff, but it was it was meant to go to court I think on May eighteen, so soon. Wow, And days before it's been disappeared. Lawyers have made millions, reputations have been trashed and nobody apparently no money exchanged hands between the two parties, and no one, as you as evidenced by that really confusing press release, nobody is saying that they've won or not. Claire does the fact that Blake Lively stepped onto the met Gala carpet the minute that happened signaled that she sees this as victory or that she'd liked to pretend the whole thing didn't happen, And how the hell does she move forward?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Claire, what does that mean that she shot up at the Metgala?
Speaker 1: One?
Speaker 2: I think it's genius. I always think that the best publicity in response to this stuff is to be around and change the narrative, like changing a different direction. Celebrities are so clever that it is no coincidence that this statement came out when it did and that then she was on a red carpet, because you just you know that there's so much going on in the world. People are going to be all the celebrity reporters are going to be distracted, just like the zones.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And.
Speaker 2: It's the same reason it always happens. When I was editor in chief, the local Australian celebrities would always announce their breakup at like five pm on a Friday, and it's like, you know.
Speaker 3: The journals have gone to drinks or boxing day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, we've gone to drinks, you know that West Skeleton stuff on the weekends.
Speaker 3: We're not going to go as hard on this story.
Speaker 2: So I think it was smart that it was released when it was, and it was smart that she turned up at the met gala and that she reminded everyone I look really good in address.
Speaker 1: You to figure but disagree because what immediately happened the minute she opened her mouth.
Speaker 2: Well, this is what's interesting that depending on your algorithm, and depending on what side of the Internet you're on, there are two very different stories. So on certain apps, the story I'm saying is this was a win for Blake Lively that, for example, the line at the end of that statement including a respectful environment online, that that was very much acknowledging what had happened to her, which was all the allegations about manufactur orchestrated campaign.
Speaker 1: Because that is the thing that I will take away from this mess the most, is that seeing the messages between Baldoni's press people and him about ways that you can use and manipulate social media to dent somebody's reputation is not just like when you see suddenly start seeing everywhere lots of tiktoks around of like, look at this interview with this person, doesn't she come across a bit like this but there can be a lot more behind it. And this is also things that we pointed out about amber Hood joining the amber Hood Johnny deppcayse that there can be a really orchestrated dark arts going on there, and certainly the examples that were pinging back and forward between Justin Baldoni and his reps suggested that I knew that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's there's a lot of arguments that that line in particular is about what she went through, because she really has been torn apart on the internet. However, I couldn't believe that she turns up at the met Gala. She there's she clearly you could actually tell from her speaking when she was interviewed that she was nervous, that she was trying, like, I can't put my foot in it.
Speaker 3: I can't like that.
Speaker 2: There have been viral interviews of her for a couple of years now all over the Internet of her just saying slightly the wrong thing in an interview, and it becomes that she's an awful person. Blake Lively did an interview on the met Gala red carpet and it has been analyzed to death, and people think she was rude to the interviewer in this instance, well, you look gorgeous.
Speaker 4: I am wearing Jackson weederhot gorgeous, thank you beautiful hair. She yeah, you look studying. And this is archival versace, but they met a fid it by adding a big beautiful train. So it's a piece from two thousand and six. And it was just such an honor to be able to wear this gorgeous, gorgeous gown. It looks like a sunrise and a sunset and watercolor and gorgeous range shworts, jewelry. But this this, but these, this is a Judith leberbag. And we were trying to find a piece of famous iconic art to put on and make it look like it was in a frame. And then I said, would you actually, if you're gonna make it custom, would you do my kid's art? So my kids each painted a painting, a watercolor painting. So each of my four kids did this.
Speaker 1: That is so spoo especial.
Speaker 4: So I have them with me.
Speaker 2: And that has been interpreted as her being a bit, as her being dismissive, as her being self scentered. The other thing that's been I think we want to know what this is.
Speaker 1: So here's my challenge to your strategy, be public, give them things to talk about, because she can't get away from this narrative now for some time, it's been years of her lit like every time she opens her mouth. There's a lot of people invested in you're a terrible person, as you say, so they're just going to find ways to say that over and over again. In the way that the Internet is now very invested in hating Blake Lively a certain so, just in the way that the internet's very invested in hating Megan Markele. It doesn't matter what she does, what she says, where she goes. You can't win that game.
Speaker 2: One of the great arguments was it costs one hundred k for a plate at the Met gala, and part of her claim was the financial stress caused by Baldoni smear campaign. And it's like she's not paying for that one hundred k plate, neither is anyone people being like I thought you were arguing you were locked out of Hollywood.
Speaker 3: Doesn't look like you're locked out of Hollywood.
Speaker 2: And she had a bag where her interpretation of the art theme was that she got her four kids to draw a picture on each side of the back no self centered, made it about you.
Speaker 3: You wanted to.
Speaker 2: Claim authorship over this event, So there are people.
Speaker 1: This is why I think her best strategy is to go away for a few years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think the weird thing is I think if Justin Baldoni had turned up, I think there's something, there's an anonymity that we give men that we just don't give women like I just don't think he is going to be plagued in the same way. And I think it's Marina Hyde who says he'll probably do some low budget it.
Speaker 1: Will definitely have dented his possibilities of becoming a big name. I think that because, as Marina Hyde says in that story in The Guardian, she wrote a column about this, saying that the overarching lesson of this whole thing is never ever go to court, never ever ever. And they didn't actually end up in court, but still is that for the rest of time. Their names are now linked, every interview, every pro file, every project they do. This will always be part of the story in a way that it wouldn't if it hadn't entered the courts. But when I say I think go away free, I don't mean disappear like I don't mean silencing women. I mean work on projects, work on producer projects, hustle behind the scenes, do all your hollywoody stuff until you can come back to address this with more nuanced Look at Lena Dunnan. We've been talking about that a lot lately. Famously one of the most hated women on the internet for a period of time, couldn't put a foot right, couldn't do anything right, opened her mouth, everybody jumped on her. We know how the culture treats women who speak out about all kinds of things. There are local examples of this too. In a way. You've got to like let the air out of it and then come back when there's some nuance and distance.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean That her while best friend Taylor Swift would have told her that too, because Taylor, of course also famously disappeared and was getting around in large boxes for a while just to stay out of the public eye. That comment of Marina Hides about never go to court is interesting because a few years ago, someone in a professional context did something to me that made me want to take them to court, and so I went to talk to a lawyer about it, who have been recommended to me, and the lawyer heard me out. I was very grateful for the advice she gave me. She said, look, I think you have a strong case, but if you did this, everyone in your field would say that you were a nightmare, no matter what happened in the court case, no matter how right you are, and I do think you're right, it would affect you professionally and it would follow you professionally for the rest of your life. And I think getting that advice from someone who had kind of a monetary gain to taking the case on was something I really appreciated. And I just wonder if Blake Lively's legal advice turned out to be deeply misguided.
Speaker 1: I know. The sad thing about this argument I've never taken to court is, of course, that women putting up with sexual harassment at work are just always this guy from ever doing anywhere with it, because you're going to get your character smeared. And it might be on the scale of a Blake Lively, or it might be just the local gossip at the football club, like whatever it is, and that it's like we've seen this play out in massive letters across the sky that watch out, women will get you one way or another, and whether or not Blake Lively is particularly likable, is always nice to everybody? Blah blah blah, isn't the point?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is quite scary for women knowing that if you pursue, which is what an element of what Blake Lively was pursuing, a sexual harassment claim, that all your texts will be looked over and mocked and made fun of. Like, that's a really scary cost to pay. After the break James Valentine and why everyone's talking about the concept of a living wake. On the twenty second of April of this year, cast out musician and author James Valentine died age sixty four, leaving behind his son, his daughter, and his wife. The ABC veteran had terminal cancer, and he was widely loved by his audience, who had been listening to him for three decades. He had been transparent over the last two and a half years about his health. He was a very talented saxophone player and anyone who grew up in the eighties in Australia probably knows him as part of the band The Models and their iconic songs Barbados and Out of Mind, Out of Sight, and he was a Sydney radio presenter. Emilia and Holly, what was your connection to James Valentine as a radio personality?
Speaker 3: He was a really important figure in my childhood. He hosted a thing called the Afternoon Show on ABC when back when there were forty TV channels in this country. I remember those days, and he would host and it was cartoons, it was variety. And I never really listened to him on the radio, but I have such you know, in the way that those childhood figures loom large for you. I've always held such fondness and affection for him. And how about you, Hollie.
Speaker 1: He's clearly just an incredibly skilled communicator. I mean, I would be lying if I said I listened to that show. But anyone who knows how radio works, how the ABC works, so many people I know who know him. He was just clearly exceptionally good at what he did and very loved.
Speaker 2: It's a reminder I think that parasocial relationships have existed long before the Internet. The fact that when the news of his death came out there was a widespread kind of public grieving and a lot of listeners who called in the next day, and his wife and his kids were kind of saying how much that meant to have people remember their dad through sense of humor and his energy. So two and a half years ago he was diagnosed with esophagal cancer and he was given two different treatment options, and he chose the one that was a bit less invasive and would preserve the things he loved in life, which were presenting radio, playing saxophone and enjoying food. Then in January of this year, he's given a terminal diagnosis and his response to that diagnosis and what he planned to do next was documented in Monday's episode of Australian Story, presented by Lee Sales, and it started a huge conversation about the concept of a living wake, which he very fittingly held on Valentine's Day of this year. Here's what he said on the show stage.
Speaker 5: Four, terminal, inoperable, uncurable. I don't want to hear any of those words, let alone in the one sentence. So a friend suggested Tommy, maybe you should do a living wake, and oh, that sounds like fun. I will know the time and the day and so it'll be the last weekend. What do you do on that last weekend's dinner? Before? What do you think is that the last meal, I will probably know exactly when I'm going.
Speaker 1: That's so moving. So seeing the footage of his reference at the end there was due to the fact that he ultimately chose the time he was going to die, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he chose voluntary assisted dying and was very transparent around how he made that decision and what that decision entailed. For context, voluntary assisted dying is legal in all states in Australia and the Act except the Northern Territory, and obviously it's an incredibly complex and incredible, incredibly personal decision that has sparked. It's sparking more and more conversation the more we have and aging population and the more people are getting certain diagnoses that may keep them alive for a very long time, but the quality of that life may be poor, and him kind of taking people through that decision was a huge part of the Australian story. But it meant that he got to plan this living wake and there's footage of it, and he's got his family and friends there and there are so many familiar ABC faces and he's really good friends with Norman Swan, who he had on radio to discuss his diagnosis, like what all the different parts of the body were and what they did. And there was something so moving about seeing him on stage with a microphone at his own wake, basically saying, please come up to me and tell me stories and memories about us, because they are what's going to carry me through the next few weeks. And I guess I thought it must be such a relief for his family that then when you do a funeral, he's heard all the beautiful things that you're then going to say about him. I think this is really something we should we should all be looking at.
Speaker 1: If it's possible, this episode of Australian Story is really recommended viewing. I think, whether you know who James Valentine is or not, in a world where we hate to talk about death, and yet it touches everybody obviously, I mean that's a ridiculous thing to say, but it does touch everybody. I'd lost a friend to this same cancer when he was only forty six. It's like all cancers. It's a it's it's cruel and the idea that we're also we don't like talking about illness, we don't like talking about death, and seeing somebody such a skilled communicator like James Valentine in this episode talking about why he wanted to do the things he did, and they document the year so very like him talking about how very much clarified for him that he loved his work, so he didn't want to stop working. He loved playing his saxophone, so he wanted to try and avoid procedures that were going to stop him from doing that. That he really wanted to work, play and be with his family, and those are the things he wanted to spend his last year doing. It's just it's very powerful, it's very clarifying. And then to see him at his living way and he says, you know, it wakes People always say, oh, he would have loved me there, and he says, so I wanted to be there, And I just think it's very refreshing. I think, you know, I, as I said, I didn't have a direct listenership with Joe's Valentine, but people who do, and people I know who've worked with him said he brought joy all the time. And it feels like a gift to give be so honest and so open and so clear eyed in talking about this thing that nobody wants to talk about. Is like the last incredible gift that a great communicator could give, and his family is so amazing in it. I really recommend watching the show.
Speaker 2: There's a great quote in one of the ABC articles about his kind of decision making towards towards the end, where I think, as a psychologist says, dying people are not the actual act of dying is not the thing they're most scared of. They're scared of the invisibility and the absence of conversation around it. They're scared of people turning away and not wanting to be around them because of how confronting it is. And this was just such a reminder to look it straight in the eye and have the existential conversations with the people around you. The way that he spoke to his kids, and his kids were able to say, what do you think is going to happen afterwards?
Speaker 3: And I bet that that's so much harder to do than even it looks. It doesn't look easy, but I bet it's even harder to actually enact these principles that we can all agree are worthwhile.
Speaker 1: I love that his kids say that this was perfect for him in particular, this living weight, because he loved being center of attention. He loved a party, He loved being told I'm brad he was. I love the way they you know that families are really kind of I mean, I'm sure no families are perfect, but they're really healthy and loving when they can just call out that stuff about you and be like, he would love this because he just loves everybody tell him how great he is.
Speaker 3: So good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I loved that it wasn't a sanitized version because I think something I always bristle at is when you hear of somebody getting a terminal diagnosis or of you know, knowing that they're going to die. I bristle at the narrative of I guess almost toxic positivity that they're just like, well, I'm completely grateful and joyful. And then I feel for the people who don't have that response, which is completely bloody normal. But I loved there was a lot of light and shade in this. They talked about they went on a holiday, a family holiday to Bali, just before he was meant to get the surgery for his esophagus, and that the whole family's like, oh so bloody terrible holiday. Everyone was sick, everyone had covid Dad.
Speaker 3: Had BALI belly like. It's sort of I like that.
Speaker 2: In documenting this time, they've been able to show the highs and lows of what happened. But the nort Yeah, how normal it is. But the fact that he was able to do it his way, and that those conversations around what you want, what you don't want, they give so much empowerment in those in those final months and final days.
Speaker 1: Something completely different. There was celebrity baby news this week that I must mark because it was interesting. Cameron Diaz and Benji Madden just welcomed their third child. And it's interesting because Cameron is fifty three. Now. When I say that, I don't mean it's interesting in that way of like, oh, miracle baby, how did she do that? Why did you do that? Cameron Diaz. They announced that their little boy had come. They announced what his name was. His name is Nortous and he joins Raddix and Cardinal, which are all just the most rock star names of all time. They announced it. They didn't give any more details than that. It is safe to assume just because Cam's been on a press tour lately, she's been quite visible on a tour for a movie called Outcome, So she's been very visible, and it's safe to assume possibly that she wasn't heavily pregnant during that time, so likely that a surrogate was involved, but none of our business. But the thing that I found really interesting and refreshing that I wanted to unpack a little bit here is I wrote an essay a while ago when Sienna Miller was on the Red Carpet with her beautiful baby bump at I think forty three, and saying how we're entering a bit of an era of agelessness because perhaps of fertility technology, because of the different options that are open to us now, because of Hollywood and the wellness world's obsession with longevity, that we're in a different era now when it comes to age and women and kids. And I think nothing illustrates that more clearly than the fact that there haven't been a whole waterfall of stories about like, oh my god, a mom at fifty three and how could she and why would she? And da da da da. Is that now we're much more kind of like in the way that we might be about a man becoming a father at fifty three, because if you remove the biological complication from the advance for chility technology and all those things. It isn't really any different than the guy who's been doing that forever. Yeah, am I right? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, I think so too. The interesting thing is, as well, when I've looked at this story, how old Benji Madam? Well, nobody ever, as I don't know, I don't know, why didn't I.
Speaker 1: Google similar age? I think, well, let's find it happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're seven, so being a little bit younger Benji's forty seven, bloody spring chicken. But I it's interesting because whenever I see pregnancy baby news, it's obviously the life stage.
Speaker 3: I'man, I always google.
Speaker 1: How old is how?
Speaker 3: How old is that?
Speaker 1: Money is she?
Speaker 2: And you're right that we don't when we wouldn't blink an eye at a man having a child at fifty three. And obviously, if you want to think about any of the things that make rearing children.
Speaker 3: Difficult, the older you get.
Speaker 2: I mean, Amaran Diaz looks like a bloody pillar of health. She's gonna live forever, She's gonna live till she's undred.
Speaker 3: Well, I think what's interesting is that you said no one will blink, and I about a man. I wonder if, now, because women are also having babies older, all of a sudden, we're starting to blink her eyes at men having babies older. Men were allowed to do it for all of human history, but now that women are starting to do it, we're starting to revisit the whole idea of older parents because.
Speaker 2: We are interested, and there is actually more and more scientific research going into the health impacts of older because you know how, I'm called geriatric. Just for the record, I'm a geriatric mother. What age, I'm thirty five years old. No, they don't. They call it advanced material.
Speaker 3: They definitely call it just it's kind of coolrophistic.
Speaker 1: They definitely did call it geriatric though, when I had my second child at forty, I that's interesting.
Speaker 2: But if they call Brent geriatric, no, but they should have done it because he's elderly, I think.
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting. But then that also assumes.
Speaker 3: Like the judgments creeping in for both sexes now, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that assumes the idea about like we're becoming aware of the risks of older parents assumes assumes a lot about what might be going on here biologically. Yes, exactly, whereas if Cameron Diaz and Benji Madden and whoever else may be in their cohort are having are assessing all the risks, I'm sure they are. We know how health obsessed Hollywood is and making those choices, and there I think. I don't know that's interesting though, Amelia, where you say that that maybe the judgment, instead of fading away, just attaches itself to both genders.
Speaker 3: Well, because I don't think it is just about biology. I think it would be we need to put on the table to not be disingenuous. That a lot of people listening to this may have a reaction of if you have a baby at a more advanced age, shall we say, in your fifties, you automatically do a bit of maths, and you think, well, when that child in school, Cameron Diaz will be sixty three. I don't know how old Benji Madden will because I'm not that good at maths, but he'll be also kind of old. And so I think that's one of the concerns that people are now voicing a little bit more when no one ever used to say, well, Mick Jagger is going to be so old when his kids graduate but now we are starting to say that or feeling perhaps feeling more comfortable to say that.
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting. But then I think in this privileged bubble that we're talking about, longevity is an obsession. So I think that that is also changing. This right is that people are thinking rightly, wrongly whatever that with all the right advances and all the right supplements and all the right that they're imagining themselves at seventy three, at this kid's twenty first, like leaping around, I'm doing yoga and pilate, particularly if they.
Speaker 2: And Brian Johnson says he's got what is it the sperm of a twenty old? Think about that, man, Yeah, So I'm sure Cameron and Benji are having the same conversation.
Speaker 3: So Cameron has remember she literally wrote a book about sort of how to be healthy as you get older, so she's this is clearly on her radar that she's sort of anticipating she will be living a long time.
Speaker 1: That's always got time for on this Wednesday.
Speaker 3: At births, deaths, any marriages, No.
Speaker 1: There weren't any couples at the met gala, were they? They all went.
Speaker 2: Solo boycotting, boycotting marriage on the metal, or.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was like, unless that engagement wing comes from Amazon, we don't sink, perhaps in her body, her head and she did anyway. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for to our amazing team for helping us put the show together. We're going to be back in your ears on Friday, of course, and for subscribers with some scorelous gossip with Mia tomorrow. That's all.
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