Aug 24
42m 17s
In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into Captain David Marquet's latest book "Distancing: How Great Leaders Reframe to Make Better Decisions." Captain Marquet, renowned for transforming the USS Santa Fe from the worst-performing submarine to the best in the fleet, shares powerful insights on psychological distancing and how stepping outside ourselves can dramatically improve our decision-making abilities.
Make sure you also check the previous episode with Captain Marquet, where we discuss the key lessons from his book: Turn The Ship Around! A very often referred book on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast.
"What I really needed was people to think, not just comply, not just do what they were told."
Captain Marquet traces the origins of his distancing concept back to his submarine experience. After realizing that giving orders gave people "a pass on thinking," he developed a system where crew members would say "I intend to..." instead of waiting for commands. However, he noticed that officers would sometimes make decisions that were good for their department but not optimal for the submarine as a whole. This led him to ask different questions - like having the engineer sit in the captain's chair and think from that perspective. The breakthrough came when he started asking himself, "What would my six-month-from-now self want me to do today?"
"The problem with your decision making isn't gathering more market data. The problem is your internal, your egoic biases that just come from the fact that you view the decision from inside your own head."
Marquet introduces the "3 B's of better decision making": Be someone else, be somewhere else, be sometime else. These psychological distancing techniques help overcome the limitations of our "immersed self" - the version of us trapped in immediate pressures, deadlines, and ego-driven concerns. When we distance ourselves temporally (thinking as our future self), socially (thinking as someone else), or spatially (imagining being somewhere else), we access what psychologists call our "distanced self," which aligns more closely with our ideal self and core values.
"When I'm 80, when am I going to regret more? Am I going to regret trying this idea and failing or not trying the idea?"
Marquet shares how Jeff Bezos used temporal distancing when deciding whether to leave his Wall Street job to start Amazon. By imagining himself at 80 looking back, Bezos was able to see past immediate concerns like his upcoming bonus and rent payments to focus on what would truly matter in the long term. This shift in perspective transforms how our brain processes decisions - from viewing them as "scary change" to considering them through the lens of potential regret.
"I want you to imagine that a team in Singapore is going to work on the same kind of project next month. What would we want them to know?"
The distancing technique has powerful applications for team retrospectives and decision-making. Instead of asking "What could we have done better?" (which triggers defensiveness), Marquet suggests reframing as helping a future team in another location. This approach employs all three B's simultaneously:
Be someone else: Helping another team rather than critiquing yourself
Be sometime else: Focusing on future improvement rather than past mistakes
Be somewhere else: Imagining the team in a different location removes personal attachment
"You become your own friend, you become your own coach."
Marquet emphasizes that leaders cannot effectively coach others until they learn to coach themselves. He challenges leaders who want their teams to change by asking, "What have you changed recently?" The coach perspective provides the elevated view needed to see the whole field rather than being immersed in the immediate action. Like a sports coach who doesn't feel the hits but sees the strategy, our "coach self" can provide objective guidance to our "player self."
"The people who said 'you can do it' exerted more energy and felt better than the people who said 'I can do it.'"
Building on his previous work in "Leadership is Language," Marquet demonstrates how changing from first-person to second or third-person language creates psychological distance. Studies show that athletes performing endurance tests while saying "you can do it" outperformed those saying "I can do it." This simple language shift helps separate us from the immersed self and provides a slight but meaningful perspective advantage.
"What if we got fired? And the board brought in new people to run the company. What would the new people do?"
Marquet shares the pivotal moment when Intel founders Gordon Moore and Andy Grove used distancing to make the crucial decision to abandon memory chips for microprocessors. For a year, they couldn't make this decision because their identity was tied to being "memory chip makers." Only when Grove asked Moore to imagine what new leadership would do were they able to immediately see the obvious answer: focus on microprocessors. This decision saved Intel and created the company we know today.
"The best thing is you have to plan the pauses. The best case is when you plan the pause ahead of time."
Marquet explains that once we're in our reactive, immersed state, it's nearly impossible to climb out without System 2 override. The solution is to schedule pauses proactively. When teams know there will be scheduled reflection points, they're more willing to commit to execution while also noting areas for improvement. This is why agile methodologies are so effective - they build in regular pause points for reflection and course correction.
"Your brain will curate the input - it will always choose to pay attention to things that prove you're right and ignore things that prove you wrong."
The immersed self creates defensive reactions during evaluations, retrospectives, or any situation involving performance assessment. Our brains naturally filter information to support our existing self-image, remembering successes while forgetting failures. Distancing techniques help bypass these defensive mechanisms by removing the ego from the equation, allowing for more objective analysis and better decision-making.
"We act our way to new thinking. You want to do different things. We act your way to a new mindset. You don't mindset your way to new actions."
Marquet concludes with a crucial insight about change: behavior change leads to mindset change, not the other way around. Rather than trying to convince people to think differently, leaders should focus on creating small, actionable changes that gradually shift thinking patterns. His "Leadership Nudges" concept embodies this approach, offering brief, practical tools that teams can implement immediately.
About Captain David Marquet
Captain David Marquet, a former U.S. Navy submarine commander, revolutionized leadership by empowering his crew to become leaders themselves. Through his Intent-Based Leadership® model, he transformed the USS Santa Fe from the worst-performing submarine to the best in the fleet. Today, he inspires organizations worldwide to cultivate leaders at every level.
You can connect with Captain David Marquet on LinkedIn and follow him on his website at davidmarquet.com. You can also explore his YouTube channel "Leadership Nudges" for a library of over 500 short leadership videos.