episode-header-image

Nov 2024

1h 24m

Everything you’ve ever wanted to know ab...

Lenny Rachitsky

About this episode

Melissa Perri is the founder of Product Institute, author of Escaping the Build Trap, and host of the Product Thinking Podcast. She has worked with startups, Fortune 50 companies, and everything in between to help them build better products and level up their product teams. In our conversation, we discuss:

• The history of the product owner role

• The differences between product owners and product managers

• How to transition from product owner to product manager

• The evolution of and problems with the SAFe framework

• How large non-tech companies can improve their product practices

• Much more

—

Brought to you by:

• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-owners-melissa-perri

—

Where to find Melissa Perri:

• X: https://twitter.com/lissijean

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissajeanperri/

• Website: https://melissaperri.com/

• Product Institute: https://productinstitute.com/

• Podcast: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Melissa’s background

(02:12) The rise of the product owner role

(06:37) Understanding Agile and Scrum

(08:27) Challenges in Agile transformations

(10:41) The history of the product owner role

(13:58) The Scrum Guide

(15:43) Product owner responsibilities

(21:01) Adopting Scrum in organizations

(26:21) The origins and implementation of SAFe

(35:20) Why Melissa doesn’t recommend SAFe

(40:33) Advice for implementing a digital transformation

(49:12) An example of SAFe adoption

(51:27) The value of experienced product leaders

(56:53) Career paths for product owners

(01:04:14) Transitioning from product owner to product manager

(01:06:41) Be careful relying on certifications

(01:11:43) Evaluating existing product owners

(01:16:55) Final thoughts on Agile and product management

—

Referenced:

• Escaping the Build Trap: How Effective Product Management Creates Real Value: https://www.amazon.com/Escaping-Build-Trap-Effective-Management/dp/149197379X

• Lean UX: https://leanuxnyc.co/

• Scrum: https://www.scrum.org/

• What is Extreme Programming? https://www.agilealliance.org/glossary/xp/

• Capital One: https://www.capitalone.com/

• The Agile Manifesto: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/manifesto

• Ken Schwaber on X: https://x.com/kschwaber

• Jeff Sutherland on X: https://x.com/jeffsutherland

• Kanban: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban

• What is a kanban board?: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban/boards

• Ron Jeffries’s website: https://www.ronjeffries.com/

• Jeff Patton on X: https://x.com/jeffpatton

• The Scrum Guide: https://www.scrum.org/resources/scrum-guide

• OpenSky: https://www.openskycc.com/

• SAFe: https://scaledagileframework.com/

• Dean Leffingwell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanleffingwell/

• Capital One scraps 1,100 tech positions: https://www.reuters.com/technology/capital-one-scraps-1100-tech-positions-source-2023-01-19/

• Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

• Marty Cagan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• Jeff Gothelf on X: https://x.com/jboogie

• Shruti Patel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shruti-patel-32bb573a/

• Product Thinking Podcast: Mastering Product Focus: Balancing Legacy and Innovation with Shruti Patel: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/9/25/episode-190-mastering-product-focus-balancing-legacy-and-innovation-with-shruti-patel

• Melissa Douros on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissadouros/

• Mind the Product: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/

• Athenahealth: https://www.athenahealth.com/

• McKinsey: https://www.mckinsey.com/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Up next

Solo founder, $80M exit, 6 months: The Base44 bootstrapped startup success story | Maor Shlomo

Maor Shlomo is the founder of Base44, an AI-powered app builder that he bootstrapped to an over $80 million acquisition by Wix in just six months. As a solo founder (with severe ADHD), he hit $1 million ARR just three weeks after launch and grew the product to more than 400,000 u ... Show More

I’ve run 75+ businesses. Here’s why you’re probably chasing the wrong idea. | Andrew Wilkinson (co‑founder of Tiny)

Andrew Wilkinson is the co‑founder of Tiny, a holding company that quietly owns more than three dozen profitable internet and consumer brands, including Dribbble and the AeroPress coffee maker. Starting as a teenage barista and web designer, he’s created a portfolio approaching $ ... Show More

Naming expert shares the process behind creating billion-dollar brand names like Azure, Vercel, Windsurf, Sonos, Blackberry, and Impossible Burger | David Placek (Lexicon Branding)

David Placek is the founder of Lexicon Branding, a company that focuses exclusively on the development of brand names for competitive advantage. Lexicon is behind iconic names such as Sonos, Microsoft’s Azure, Windsurf, Vercel, Impossible Foods, BlackBerry, Intel’s Pentium, Apple ... Show More

Recommended Episodes

How to Do Product Discovery Right with Pawel Huryn, 175K+ on LinkedIn, Senior PM and Author

This episode is a masterclass in modern product management—featuring cutting-edge frameworks, actionable strategies, AI integration, competitive edge tactics, and aligning product goals with overarching business objectives.In today's episode, we cover:Junior PM Roles Are Done – 0 ... Show More

The tool product managers love and is disrupting Jira | Karri Saarinen, CEO at Linear | E234

In this episode of the Product Podcast we chat with Karri Saarinen, the CEO at Linear. It's the fastest-growing and most beloved project management tool in the world. The company is valued at $400 million, and has raised $52 million in funding from Accel, Sequoia, and some o ... Show More

Growing as a CPO as your product grows from 0 to $10B valuation | Tomer London, Co-founder and Chief Product Officer at Gusto | E235

In this episode, of The Product Podcast, we chat with Tomer London,Co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Gusto, the leading HR platform for small and medium-sized businesses in the US. Tomer shares his journey from coding his first inventory management system for his dad’s clot ... Show More

Jas Shah's Hot Take - Product Management isn't as Glamorous as People Think (with Jas Shah, Fintech Product Consultant)

Jas Shah is a fintech product consultant based in London who helps small startups and management services organizations build winning products, whilst keeping his pulse on the fintech scene. His hot take? That product management is one of the least glamorous functions in an organ ... Show More

YDS: Product Owner vs. Product Manager Explained!

Welcome to another episode of Your Daily Scrum with your favorite Scrum trainers, Todd and Ryan! 🌟 In today's episode, we dive deep into the often confusing world of Scrum accountabilities: What's the real difference between a Product Owner and a Product Manager? 🤔💼 🔑 Key Tak ... Show More

Masterclass: Product Agencies by Mirela Mus | Founder at Product People, 12+ Years of PM Experience

As a PM, you must’ve wondered about working on new products every few months. Mirela had a similar story that inspired her to start a Product Agency for Interim Product Work.In this episode, Mirela helps in breaking down everything about Interim and Fractional Product work, the P ... Show More

Introducing Product Thinking with Melissa Perri

Product management has been adopted all over the world in the last decade. But despite its popularity, great product management is still hard to come by. The Product Thinking podcast is setting out to change that. This show will cover: How product leadership influences organizati ... Show More

The Lean Product Playbook 10 Years Later: Product Management in the Age of AI

Product management fundamentals are timeless. But the tools? Completely transformed.Every PM needs to master new workflows in 2025:AI Prototyping - From text to live prototype in minutesDesign Collaboration - Working with designers in the AI ageUser Research - Systematic validati ... Show More

Slack's VP of Product & GM Jaime DeLanghe Reveals How to Monetize AI Product Features! | E231

In this episode, we're thrilled to have Jamie DeLanghe, VP of Product at Slack, who shares her inspiring journey from working in customer support at Etsy to a successful career in product management. Jamie provides valuable insights into mastering product management without ... Show More

Shopify VP of Product on How to Build AI-First Products | Glen Coates | E269

In this episode, Carlos Gonzalez de Villaumbrosia interviews Glen Coates, Vice President of Product at Shopify.Shopify is one of the world’s leading commerce platforms, powering millions of businesses and helping entrepreneurs sell online and offline with ease. Since launching in ... Show More

Listen to millions of songs and podcasts on Anghami