Drew Perkins talks with Pamela Snow, Distinguished Professor of Cognitive Psychology in the School of Education at La Trobe University and co-founder of the Science of Language and Reading (SOLAR) Lab, about flourishing versus learning, where explicit instruction and inquiry each belong, and why teacher preparation has so often left out the science of how children learn.
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Intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies, Augustana University.
Key takeaways
- Learning is part of flourishing, not its rival: Pamela treats wellbeing, safety and belonging as the "wallpaper" of school, but argues students can't be called flourishing if they aren't learning. Drew worries that "school is for learning" can shrink into a narrow, rigid set of outcomes.
- Pedagogy is a continuum: Both reject the explicit-versus-inquiry dichotomy. The real question is where a given task and a given group of learners belong on that continuum.
- Explicit instruction today is interactive: Pamela describes fast-paced, inclusive classrooms with mini-whiteboards, turn-and-talks, warm calling and constant checks for understanding, not lecturing, followed by project-based application once students are proficient.
- Skill tends to come before thrill: Pamela points to a 2023 Finnish twin study suggesting that reading skill drives reading enjoyment rather than the other way around.
- Inquiry first is the real disagreement: Drew sees a well-designed driving question as a primer and a builder of long-term dispositions like informed skepticism. Pamela worries about misconceptions, efficiency and equity for novices who start furthest behind.
- Teacher prep needs the science of learning, and context: They agree pre-service teachers need cognitive load theory and executive function. Drew adds that without classroom experience, those ideas may not stick.
Episode highlights and timecodes
- 00:00 – Introduction: Pamela's path from speech-language pathology and brain injury research into education.
- 02:28 – Oral Language And Youth Justice: Hidden oral language gaps among young people in youth justice, and literacy as a protective factor.
- 05:22 – Moving Into Education: La Trobe's 2020 restructure to align its School of Education with learning science.
- 07:06 – The SOLAR Lab: Founding the lab with Tanya Serry and what teachers need to know about how the English writing system works.
- 09:55 – Pamela's Own Schooling: Explicit phonics in the 1960s and a "choose your own adventure" secondary school in the 1970s.
- 14:52 – Social Media And The Pedagogy Wars: Why this conversation, and whether the debate is productive.
- 15:53 – How Teacher Education Changed In Australia: The Dawkins reforms and the rise of sociology in education faculties.
- 19:05 – The Martian Test: Who owns the question of how children learn?
- 24:47 – Flourishing Versus Learning: Drew's flourishing question and Pamela's two-part answer.
- 29:35 – Teacher Autonomy And Professional Status: Comparisons to medicine, aviation and nursing, and the soft bigotry of low expectations.
- 32:19 – What School Signs Say: Virtues on the walls, and how rarely learning makes the list.
- 34:33 – Pedagogy As A Continuum: Types of knowledge, and why inquiry and discovery shouldn't be conflated.
- 36:48 – Where Explicit Instruction Fits: Efficiency and equity when teaching new material to novices.
- 40:37 – Explicit Instruction In 2026: Interactive classrooms first, then project-based application once students are proficient.
- 44:10 – Motivation And Scaffolding: A zoo enrichment analogy, gradual release, and "I do, we do, we do, we do, you do."
- 50:28 – Skill Before Thrill: The Finnish twin study on reading skill and reading enjoyment.
- 51:56 – Inquiry As A Primer?: Drew's case for inquiry before knowledge building.
- 56:49 – The New Zealand Example: How an open start can spread misconceptions.
- 1:00:38 – Slow To Go Fast: Driving questions and inquiry as a design problem.
- 1:01:53 – Inquiry, Civics And Informed Skeptics: Long-term outcomes that are hard to measure.
- 1:04:53 – How Would We Measure Success?: Hope as a strategy versus qualitative evidence.
- 1:07:17 – NAPLAN And Math: Reading-heavy math problems and teacher math anxiety.
- 1:09:53 – Explicit Instruction Inside PBL: The pizza restaurant tipping guide project.
- 1:11:41 – Cognitive Science In Teacher Prep: Can novices use it before they have classroom context?
- 1:18:17 – "Cognitive Load Theory Doesn't Matter": A teacher's realization, and Drew's view of cognitive load in well-designed inquiry.
- 1:21:50 – Variability And Social Justice: De-implementing practices that don't deliver for students.
- 1:23:13 – Closing Remarks: On disagreeing and still listening and learning.
