Bestselling author Michael Lewis (Moneyball, The Big Short, The Blind Side) joins the show to talk about his new book, Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State, and what he found reporting on the Trump administration's war against federal civil servants.
Lewis often writes about overlooked people inside massive, misunderstood systems, from Wall Street to baseball to government scientists. In his newest work, he explains how Elon Musk's DOGE actually operated inside agencies like the IRS and NIH, why career civil servants became targets, and what happens when the trust in our government finally collapses.
Lewis's new book Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State is out now.
00:00 Opening
00:25 Talking To Bannon, Kirk And Understanding Your Enemies
7:24 Which Of Michael Lewis’s Subjects Was Most Pissed At Him
10:35 How Michael Lewis Decides On His Subjects
18:07 Who Can Tell The Story of Trump’s Second Term
24:42 The Big Question Lewis Asked Himself Before Writing Blockers
30:03 Elon Musk, DOGE & The Origin Of The Term “Blockers”
36:23 What The Hell is The US Institute of Peace?
43:22 Government Is Moneyball All Over The Place
47:45 How Trump Tries To Weaponize Data Against Undocumented Workers
54:33 Better Information Leads To Societal Progress
1:00:06 The Immigrant Who Changed How We Fight Fires vs. The Trump Chaos Machine
1:17:46 Trump vs. The NIH: Who Killed The Scientist Curing Our Diseases?
1:25:09 How People Really Deal With RFK Jr.
1:29:31 The Backdoor That DOGE Used to Fire Millions
1:34: 36 Trump is A Trust Destroying Machine & Where Trump Goes Next
1:38:16 How Permanent Is Trump’s Harm To Government?
1:45:58 How Reagan Ruined America’s Covid Response & Helped Trump Weaponize Grievance
1:51:15 A Sign Of Hope From A Former DOGE Employee
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