Bitcoiners built L402 for a Lightning-native web. Crypto built x402 for agents — and early volume is mostly stables. Ben Carman helped get Lightning into the x402 standard, and argues the pragmatic move is to meet that stack in the middle rather than wait for L402 alone.
Ben Carman of Spiral rejoin me to unpack HTTP 402 Payment Required, facilitators versus Coinbase Commerce, why agentic payments are still near zero today, and why AI agents may adopt Bitcoin faster than humans — because models already know sats, invoices, and QR codes.
Timestamps:
00:00 — Intro
00:50 — L402, x402, and MPP
01:09 — What HTTP 402 Actually Is
02:41 — Meet x402 in the Middle
03:44 — Facilitators and Coinbase Default
06:06 — x402 Standard vs Coinbase Commerce
07:26 — Stables Dominate Early Volume
08:03 — Agentic Payments Still Near Zero
08:55 — Agents Already Know Bitcoin
12:05 — Personal Agents vs B2B Agents
13:03 — Pay-Per-Query Agent Wallets
16:14 — Businesses on Bitcoin Are Easier
16:39 — AI Climb and Builder Craft
22:29 — Won't Fund OpenAI — Still Uses Them
25:38 — Cost Deflation = Human Freedom
28:57 — Best AI tools as of Oct 2
31:16 — Terminal Bench and Real Evals
32:25 — Bench Maxing vs Real Feel
34:59 — Four Years From ChatGPT
36:56 — Quantization Without the LARPs
39:51 — Mesh Alliance and Mesh LLM
42:37 — Goose, LDK, Think Big
Links:
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