"In the 1980s, it was still apparently common to perform surgery on newborn babies without anaesthetic on both sides of the Atlantic. This led to appalling cases, and to public outcry, and to campaigns to change clinical practice. And as soon as [some courageous scientists] looked for evidence, it showed that this practice was completely indefensible and then the clinical practice was changed. People don’t need convincing anymore that we should take newborn human babies seriously as sentience candidates. But the tale is a useful cautionary tale, because it shows you how deep that overconfidence can run and how problematic it can be. It just underlines this point that overconfidence about sentience is everywhere and is dangerous." —Jonathan Birch
In today’s episode, host Luisa Rodriguez speaks to Dr Jonathan Birch — philosophy professor at the London School of Economics — about his new book, The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. (Check out the free PDF version!)
Links to learn more, highlights, and full transcript.
They cover:
- Candidates for sentience, such as humans with consciousness disorders, foetuses, neural organoids, invertebrates, and AIs
- Humanity’s history of acting as if we’re sure that such beings are incapable of having subjective experiences — and why Jonathan thinks that that certainty is completely unjustified.
- Chilling tales about overconfident policies that probably caused significant suffering for decades.
- How policymakers can act ethically given real uncertainty.
- Whether simulating the brain of the roundworm C. elegans or Drosophila (aka fruit flies) would create minds equally sentient to the biological versions.
- How new technologies like brain organoids could replace animal testing, and how big the risk is that they could be sentient too.
- Why Jonathan is so excited about citizens’ assemblies.
- Jonathan’s conversation with the Dalai Lama about whether insects are sentient.
- And plenty more.
Chapters:
- Cold open (00:00:00)
- Luisa’s intro (00:01:20)
- The interview begins (00:03:04)
- Why does sentience matter? (00:03:31)
- Inescapable uncertainty about other minds (00:05:43)
- The “zone of reasonable disagreement” in sentience research (00:10:31)
- Disorders of consciousness: comas and minimally conscious states (00:17:06)
- Foetuses and the cautionary tale of newborn pain (00:43:23)
- Neural organoids (00:55:49)
- AI sentience and whole brain emulation (01:06:17)
- Policymaking at the edge of sentience (01:28:09)
- Citizens’ assemblies (01:31:13)
- The UK’s Sentience Act (01:39:45)
- Ways Jonathan has changed his mind (01:47:26)
- Careers (01:54:54)
- Discussing animal sentience with the Dalai Lama (01:59:08)
- Luisa’s outro (02:01:04)
Producer and editor: Keiran Harris
Audio engineering by Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong
Additional content editing: Katy Moore and Luisa Rodriguez
Transcriptions: Katy Moore