Nir Eyal is the author of two best-selling books, Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products and Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. He writes, consults, and teaches at the intersection of psychology, technology, and business. His books have sold over 1 million copies in more than 30 languages; he has taught at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business and its Design School; and he has started and sold two startups since 2003. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Strategies for becoming less distractible and improving focus
• The difference between distraction and “traction”
• Reactive work vs. reflexive work and why you should book time in your calendar
• The 10-minute rule to overcome internal triggers and stay focused
• The problem with to-do lists, and what to do instead
• The value of creating a timebox schedule that aligns with personal values and priorities
• The use of pacts as a last line of defense against distraction
• How to develop a high-agency mindset
• Advice for leaders on helping employees improve focus in the workplace
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Find the transcript for this episode and all past episodes at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/episodes/. Today’s transcript will be live by 8 a.m. PT.
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Where to find Nir Eyal:
• X: https://twitter.com/nireyal
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nireyal/
• Website: https://www.nirandfar.com/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Nir’s background
(04:20) How to become less distractible
(07:43) Understanding distraction and traction
(12:52) The four steps to becoming indistractable
(13:53) Mastering internal triggers
(18:49) Surfing the urge with a 10-minute timer
(23:20) Making time for traction with a timebox schedule
(25:02) How to turn your values into time
(28:36) Booking deep work time
(29:22) Making pacts to prevent distraction
(31:00) The problem with to-do lists
(34:31) The drawback of deadlines
(36:08) Distraction is an emotion regulation problem
(39:54) Hacking back external triggers
(45:03) Preventing distraction with pacts
(48:18) Specific tools to hold you accountable
(53:42) Managing emotions and discomfort
(56:37) Taking responsibility and being high-agency
(01:00:09) Becoming indistractable at work
(01:05:04) Schedule syncing to align with managers
(01:09:36) We are not as hooked on technology as people think
(01:16:00) Life purpose and personal responsibility
(01:17:38) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life: https://www.amazon.com/Indistractable-Control-Your-Attention-Choose/dp/194883653X
• Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products: https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788
• Dorothy Parker’s quote: https://twitter.com/nireyal/status/1472280598723108866
• “Writing is bleeding” quote: https://www.hemingwaysociety.org/quotation-controversy-writing-and-bleeding
• The Pomodoro Technique Explained: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryancollinseurope/2020/03/03/the-pomodoro-technique/
• Timeboxing: Why It Works and How to Get Started in 2024: https://www.nirandfar.com/timeboxing/
• Using your working time well - Issue 22: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/time-management-issue-22
• All-In podcast: https://www.allinpodcast.co/
• Nir’s post about “the planning fallacy”: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nireyal_why-do-tasks-always-seem-to-take-longer-than-activity-7137440438939959297-XIUB/
• How the Ancient Greeks Beat Distraction: https://www.nirandfar.com/tantalizing-distractions/
• Jeremy Bentham: https://iep.utm.edu/jeremy-bentham
• An overview of Sigmund Freud’s pleasure principle: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/nursing-and-health-professions/pleasure-principle
• The Matrix “There is no spoon” scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI
• Outlet timer: https://www.amazon.com/Century-Indoor-24-Hour-Mechanical-Outlet/dp/B01LPSGBZS
• Forest app: https://www.forestapp.cc/
• Focusmate: https://www.focusmate.com/
• Have We Been Thinking About Willpower the Wrong Way for 30 Years?: https://hbr.org/2016/11/have-we-been-thinking-about-willpower-the-wrong-way-for-30-years
• We Need Social Antibodies to Fight the Disease of Distraction: https://nireyal.medium.com/we-need-social-antibodies-to-fight-the-disease-of-distraction-51f9187be016
• The Mere Presence of Your Smartphone Reduces Brain Power, Study Shows: https://news.utexas.edu/2017/06/26/the-mere-presence-of-your-smartphone-reduces-brain-power
• Leading in Tough Times: HBS Faculty Member Amy C. Edmondson on Psychological Safety: https://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/insights-and-advice/blog/post/leading-in-tough-times
• If Tech Is So Distracting, How Do Slack Employees Stay So Focused?: https://www.nirandfar.com/slack-use/
• Managing up: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/managing-up
• Duolingo: https://www.duolingo.com/
• FitBot: https://www.fitbotapp.com/
• Paulo Coelho’s quote: https://twitter.com/paulocoelho/status/416264984188825600
• Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X
• The Experience Machine: How Our Minds Predict and Shape Reality: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Machine-Minds-Predict-Reality/dp/1524748455
• Empire of the Sun on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Sun-Christian-Bale/dp/B001N3JY82
• Sesame grinder: https://www.miyacompany.com/450-014-450-014
• Muji pens: https://www.muji.us/collections/pen-pencils
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.