Nov 2023
17m 41s
Drs. Cardinale Smith and Raymond Osarogiagbon discuss key research featured at the 2023 ASCO Quality Care Symposium, including the role of AI in quality measurement and solution-focused approaches addressing care delivery, financial toxicity, and clinician well-being.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Hello. I'm Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm the chief scientist at the Baptist Memorial Healthcare Corporation and director of the Multidisciplinary Thoracic Oncology Program and the Thoracic Oncology Research Group at the Baptist Cancer Center here in Memphis, Tennessee. I have the distinct delight of serving as co-chair of the 2023 ASCO Quality Care Symposium. And I am delighted to welcome my colleague, Dr. Cardinale Smith, who served as chair of the Symposium.
Dr. Smith is a professor in the Department of Medicine and Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine at the Tisch Cancer Institute at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York. Today, we'll be discussing solutions and key research to advance high-value, high-quality cancer care that were featured at the Symposium.
You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of this episode, and disclosures of all guests on the podcast are available at asco.org/DNpod.
Dr. Smith, it's great to be speaking to you today.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Thank you. I'm excited to be speaking with you as well.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: The Quality Care Symposium featured many novel approaches in care delivery, including innovative ways to advance health equity through supportive oncology. As a specialist in geriatrics and palliative medicine, your work has focused on supporting the needs of patients with cancer. What are the innovations in supportive oncology that you were excited about at the meeting?
Dr. Cardinale Smith: I think we had several really fantastic sessions [on supportive oncology] at the meeting. One of the key things that came up around innovations in palliative care delivery was a roundtable discussion ("Innovations in Palliative Care Delivery for Structurally Marginalized Populations: A Roundtable Discussion"), and the speakers really focused on community-engaged approaches to the delivery of palliative and supportive care interventions. During the discussion, the speakers talked about utilizing the community voice and incorporating that into work to describe and enhance models of care delivery.
Dr. Manali Patel discussed her work on the transformative impact of patient navigators who focused on palliative care skills, in particular, communication, symptom discussions, and how that contributed to the improved outcomes of patients with advanced cancer. They saw reductions in mortality, lower acute care use, greater palliative care and hospice use, and lower total costs.
Dr. Mao discussed a virtual mind-body fitness program to reduce unplanned hospitalizations among patients undergoing active cancer treatments. And Dr. Irwin presented her results of a randomized trial of patient-centered collaborative care for adults with serious mental illness who were newly diagnosed with cancer. I think these discussions just really centered on centering patients and focusing on supporting their care.
And then finally, I was really excited to hear Dr. Deborah Mayer of UNC Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center, who received the Joseph Simone Quality Care Award, and she spoke about her distinguished career and how we can do better for our patients and ourselves ("Reflections on Improving Cancer Care: How Can We Do Better for Our Patients and Ourselves"). And what stood out for me was her recognition of the importance of "teaming," and she really talked about acknowledging that before there was terminology for it. And it struck me because it remains so critically important in terms of how we advance the science and delivery of cancer.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yeah, that Joseph Simone Award was amazing; I've got to tell you that Manali Patel's presentation blew me away. The video of the veterans talking about end-of-life care and the tough decisions, how they got to work, man, chills down my spine.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Yeah, and I think what's even more incredible is that the folks who were helping to lead those conversations were not people who spent an incredible amount of time going to school to learn how to do this. They were folks from the community who were just engaging with people and conversations about their values.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: What an original way to tackle the wicked problem. Just amazing.
So improving clinician well-being was also a key topic at the meeting. Speakers addressed oncology workforce shortages and novel approaches for improving team-based care delivery. So, Cardi, what are your key takeaways from these sessions ("Building Clinician Well-Being Through Team-Based Care Delivery")
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Improving team-based care delivery is essential as the health care system can feel fragmented for patients, and, honestly, for us as clinicians as well. I think my takeaway [from this session] is that there has to be an organizational and systems-based approach to really improving this issue if we're going to make meaningful and impactful change. We were presented with data that shows that this really isn't a one size fits all approach, and what might work for physicians as a group does not work for APPs or nursing. And we really have to think about all of these different groups based on what they need.
Caroline Schenkel from the ASCO Center for Research and Analytics (CENTRA) presented impactful data on the state of the oncology workforce. And that data really assessed changes in the well-being of US-based ASCO physician members and compared the responses today in 2023 to a decade ago. And unfortunately, burnout and satisfaction with work life integration appears to have significantly worsened. And while that's not really surprising, it's disappointing. There were some factors that contributed to joy in work life, and that was speaking with and advising patients, as well as enhanced practice support inclusive of administrative patient care and staffing. So I do think that gives us some information that we can use to go forward to focus on strategies we should be really encouraging and leaning in towards.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: I think it was Dr. Subbiah in this session who made the point – it's not just yoga, right? Don't tell people, "Go do yoga and get happy at work again." You have to tackle the fundamental cause of the problem, which is this crazy workload and additional tangential obligations that we have that have taken over the core mission of patient care.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Absolutely. No one needs another pizza party.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Isn't that the truth?
Dr. Cardinale Smith: I want to ask you some questions. I'm going to turn the tables on you now.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Sure.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: So let's talk about some emerging technologies. We had a session on artificial intelligence at the meeting that specifically focused on how AI will potentially impact quality care. Ray, tell me, what are some of your takeaways from these presentations?
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yeah, so AI, obviously, is a hot topic in this day and age. I had the privilege of chairing the session, "The Promise and the Perils of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in Oncology." So we had a nice group of speakers. We had Danielle Bitterman from Dana-Farber telling us what AI is and what it promises to be for us. And then Andrew Hantel, who co-chaired the session with me, did a wonderful job describing for us the perils of AI. And then Julian Hong told us how AI promises to do all kinds of wonderful things in radiation oncology, so the huge promise of AI from back office to front office across this full spectrum of oncology, be it radiology, radiation oncology and so on and so forth, were covered.
And I would strongly urge that anybody who listens to this podcast should go to that session. Andrew Hantel talked about perils, for example, this AI black box. We don't really understand when [the AI black box] tells us this is the thing, this is the answer to your question, how does it arrive at that? How can we tell that the answers we're getting are correct or incorrect? And if we were wanting to validate, how do we go back, to do so is a real problem. And then one of the take-homes was, "You can call it all the things you want, but it's still fundamentally garbage in, garbage out."
So this machine learning, if the material fed into the machine is garbage, the answers you'll get back will still be garbage. And we had Dawn Hershman present a wonderful panorama of how AI is just another tool. It's not a panacea. We've still got the same problems. It's a new tool and we're still going to have to apply it using the same frameworks as we have always applied in all of science today.
And then there was an abstract that was presented from the UK as the young lady Bea Bakshi presented a paper, Abstract 74, "Accuracy of an AI Prediction Platform in Predicting Tumor Origin in a Real-World Study." I would urge anybody who's interested in this to go back and watch that.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: I was waiting a bit for them to talk to me about how the bots were going to take over, but I guess we're not quite there yet. And Dr. Lee Fleisher also added a lot of commentary. He was the former chief medical officer and director of the Center for Clinical Standards and Quality at the US Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS). And he gave the keynote lecture, "Measuring and Driving Quality in the Future." What did you think about some of what he had to add to this conversation?
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yeah, it was an interesting keynote. It was certainly one of the highlights of the program. He talked about measuring and driving quality of care in the future. And the thing that struck me was how he covered the full spectrum of the topics that we dealt with in the Symposium, including AI, which was quite remarkable.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Yeah, I agree. I think he really did add an incredible amount to the conversation, and I think as much as we think CMS has control over so much of what we do, so much of it is controlled and regulated that in the end, they are just a body that oversees. And I think he really talked about that and hit that home.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: The one thing that struck me one of the throw away comments he made was how few physicians there were at CMS. What was it he said? Was it 30 something, 40 something on the regulatory side?
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Yeah, it was less than 40, high 30s.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Surprising.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Yeah. There aren't that many physicians that actually work there and yet they are driving so much of the decision-making.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yeah. Wow. So Cardi, let's talk about the session, the very beginning. I think you introduced that session on day one, "The Perfect Storm of High Cost Novel Therapeutics: Are We Leaving Patients Out?
Dr. Cardinale Smith: It was an incredible way, in my opinion, to start the conference. I think that the speakers really came out strong, setting the stage on really the perfect storm. I think as we are developing more high-cost novel therapeutics, the first speaker, Haley Moss, talked about how all of these approvals are leading to these accelerated pricing of drugs and how really this is unsustainable. We continue to get new and new drugs that are working, right? I mean, we have longer life expectancies for patients with cancer.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: That's the good news, but somebody has to pay for it.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Correct. And the longer you live, the harder it is to be able to sustain this and people are going into bankruptcy for it. And then Arjun Gupta came in and talked about really thinking about these supportive care drugs and supportive care meds, and how we tend not to think about those medications, but they are medications that are not highly regulated and yet also are very costly. And I think what stood out for me most from the panel and this discussion was really the patient herself, Dr. Kelly Shanahan. She is a physician, an OBGYN who no longer practices and was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer. And she really talked about how cancer put her into near bankruptcy and the cost implications to someone who we would consider in the top echelon of the financial spectrum.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yeah. You want to know what my favorite abstract was at this? It was Abstract 300, titled "Nationwide analysis of legal barriers impacting patients with cancer and caregivers."
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Okay, tell me about it.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Qasim Hussaini talked about how he had access to a unique data set of patients calling in for free legal assistance after diagnosis of their cancer. I was in awe of the uniqueness of his [and his co-authors'] approach. I don't think I've ever seen anybody tackle this problem in such an original way. I learned a lot from it, and I would definitely recommend that people go take a look at this Rapid Oral Abstract.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Yeah. In fact, while we were sitting there in the conference, I was texting the director of oncology social work at my own institution and asking her if she heard of the organization that he worked with.
Dr. Osarogiagbon: Yeah.
Dr. Smith: I'd like to highlight the last great session for our listeners. And it was really the last session of the conference, "Promises and Pitfalls of Liquid Biopsy Cancer Detection Tests in the Asymptomatic Population." And I know sometimes folks don't always get to see or hear the last session. So, I would strongly encourage folks to check it out. I liked the session because it highlighted where we are in terms of thinking about diagnosing cancers among those who are asymptomatic. And it also highlighted a lot of questions that we have in terms of what we do with those results and who should be the responsible parties for that information? Does it fall to the primary care group? Does it fall to oncologists? And I think it was good to know that this is something that's top-of-mind for NCI and that they're really putting together a toolkit to think through this and to package that together for clinicians.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: I have to give you credit, Cardi. This was fabulous. The meeting was from end to end, just superb, and the attendance was record-breaking. Congratulations.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Thank you. You are a fabulous partner. We had wonderful committee members, and the ASCO staff, as usual, is amazing.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Yes. We have to do this again in San Francisco next year.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: I'm looking forward to it.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: Thank you, Dr. Smith, for coming on the podcast to give us these highlights from the 2023 ASCO Quality Care Symposium. Our listeners will find the links to the sessions that we discussed on the transcript of this episode.
Dr. Cardinale Smith: Thank you, Ray. It was my pleasure.
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. If you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.
Disclaimer:
The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.
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Disclosures:
Dr. Cardinale Smith:
Honraria: AstraZeneca
Speakers' Bureau: Teva
Dr. Raymond Osarogiagbon:
Stock and Other Ownership Interests: Lilly, Pfizer, Gillead
Honoraria: Medscape, Biodesix
Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, American Cancer Society, Triptych Health Partners, Genetech/Roche, National Cancer Institute, LUNGevity
Patents, Royalties, Other Intellectual Property: 2 US and 1 China patents for lymph node specimen collection kit and metho of pathologic evaluation
Other Relationship: Oncobox Device, Inc.