To much of the outside world, Hamas’s decision to murder hundreds of Israelis and trigger a war that has since killed many thousands of its own people looks like a historic miscalculation — one that could soon result in the destruction of Hamas itself.

Hamas’s leaders, however, say that it was the result of a deliberate calculation.

Ben Hubbard, the Istanbul bureau chief for The New York Times, has been reporting on their decision, and what went into it.

Guest: Ben Hubbard, the Istanbul bureau chief for The New York Times.

Background reading:

Behind Hamas’s bloody gambit to create a “permanent” state of war.
It took American and Qatari diplomacy, and self-interested decisions by Hamas, to bring two hostages safely back to Israel.
Here’s the latest on the war.

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The 10/7 War