Navigating the Complexities of Next-Gene...

Dr. Nancy Davidson: So, you know, we would love that, right? I think that obviously breast cancer for many years has been interested in trying to have circulating markers that we could use to help to guide our therapy in a more meaningful way than we have in the past. And I think that the trial that you've talked about is certainly one that's trying to make that see whether that's a possibility for us based on information like the PADA trial. I'm hopeful it's going to work out. I would say, let's see what that looks like, whether it's going to be useful or not. It seems to me in some cases, some of these trials have not been quite what we hoped for, but I don't think we necessarily had the molecular techniques or the sensitivity, nor did we necessarily have other things to move to because, you know, those two approaches require both a really good test, but also the ability to use the test to define a new therapy that's going to lead to improved patient outcomes. And I think that these are ingredients that we now have available to us at our fingertips more than we did, say, a decade or 2 decades ago. Exciting approach.

Dr. Hope Rugo:  I do think there's a lot of challenges inherent in this process, monitoring blood on a regular basis and following up and then randomizing based on results. But I think [SERENA-6] is an incredibly important trial, as you have mentioned, to try and think about moving past using circulating tumor cells, which didn't work, to just change blindly to the next therapy, but more have a rational reason to change to a drug that may be more effective before the disease itself progresses. And just for our listeners, the unique aspect of trials like this in SERENA-6 is that you change therapy before you have evidence of disease progression, but only this molecular evidence of a mutation that is associated with resistance to the therapy you're on. So, it's a really important question. We'll see what happens, as you mentioned, sometimes we're not clever enough to really get around the fact that there are multiple mutations driving resistance in this setting, so we'll see how straightforward this is.

The question also comes up, and I think that's a question with many of these trials now, is they're randomizing patients after a progression on an AI and CDK4/6 inhibitor to receive the novel endocrine therapy or fulvestrant. One of, I think, the concerns of treating oncologists is that then you're sort of eliminating the possibility of a targeted agent in that setting. And of course, we have new targeted agents we're studying as well, AKT inhibitors and new inhibitors of the PI3 kinase pathway. So, the newer trials are now combining, as you mentioned. There's a lot of concerns about drug-drug interactions here and how you might really combine them. And then there are triplet studies looking at CDK4/6 inhibitors, oral SERDs primarily, and pi3-kinase and CDK4/6 inhibitors. What's your thought on these and will they really help to move the needle forward?

Dr. Nancy Davidson: I think that's a really interesting question, Hope, is whether or not we're going to find that combination therapies from the get-go are the way to go, or whether we're going to end up having to use maybe more serial therapies. Because not only is it a question about whether or not you can tackle all of these different resistance mechanisms simultaneously, but I think the other question is, as you say, are there negative drug-drug interactions, and are there toxicities that are intolerable?

Although these are targeted in all cases and they're relatively benign in terms of side effects from the breast cancer perspective, they're not devoid of toxicity. And so, I think that's going to be another issue for us – whether they're well tolerated during the time that patients are taking them. I guess the other thing I always think about, Hope,  is that it's hard to know about value of cancer care, but you know, we are talking about agents that are not inexpensive. You know, when you think about the financial toxicity, in addition to the side effect toxicity that you and I just talked about, trying to think about what that value is going to look like is going to be very important for us. Also, as somebody who worked for a long time in the lab and in the clinic, you know, there are an infinite number of combinations that you and I could think about that are rational. And so, the question is, how are we going to pick the ones that are the most rational, if you will, the ones that seem to be the most promising, and take them forward into clinical trials? Because patients are our most precious resource. And so, we want to make sure that we are bringing forward only those things that really seem to have a very strong foundation and the opportunity to improve outcomes over time. Tough, tough question for us to try to think about, as you've talked about.

The other thing is that, you know, these trials are not only for postmenopausal women, who are the majority of patients, but we also want to target them to premenopausal women. So, in those women, we're also looking at using an LHRH agonist on top of this, right, because many of these things are really at least so far designed for the postmenopausal state. So stay tuned. Lots of work going on. I think one of the interesting things will be making the leap from using these in metastatic disease at time of progression to taking them forward into the early breast cancer space. And several of the agents are now beginning to do that because of very strong preclinical and clinical data to date.

Dr. Hope Rugo: So, we have new agents that we're studying in the metastatic setting, and we've seen a trend to move fairly rapidly from phase 1B trials directly into phase 3 trials, because as you pointed out so clearly, there are a number of drugs in this setting, and we don't really know not only which agent is better, but even what class of agents is better. So, as we move more quickly from phase 1B to phase 3, the question comes up about how we're going to study these agents optimally in the early-stage setting. They, I think we all thought that maybe changing based on ctDNA evidence of a mutation might be an approach, but that's complicated. A big question for you is whether or not you think that's ready for prime time as it's being marketed as such. And then the second question is really, are we better changing our whole approach upfront in high-risk disease or should we wait until after patients are exposed to their endocrine therapy and then switch as we go along; the EMBER-4 trial is looking at that switching approach?

Dr. Nancy Davidson: Yeah, I think that this is obviously the billion-dollar question for many companies and for many of us as investigators. I don't know that I have a crystal ball into what the best approach might be. We know that already some of these have been abandoned. For example, amcenestrant. So, I don't even have to learn how to say it because it has been abandoned. It did go to phase 3, as you pointed out, in the advanced setting, looking at it with palbo vs letrozole plus palbo, and it didn't really show a whole lot that the company wanted to pursue.  So, I think that sometimes these things are going to be abandoned based on the metastatic setting, which is a large trial, and that's a trial where obviously it might be a little easier to the circulating markers, as you talked about, than maybe in the early-stage breast cancer setting.  I think that probably these early-stage trials are going to end up being big; they're going to have be clean. I'm guessing that most companies and most investigators will want to target them towards high-risk individuals, as you talked about, for 2 reasons. One is that ethically, I think we feel more comfortable with that. These are individuals where standard therapies are maybe not serving them as well as we would like and where we have information to think that we can at least have equipoise about a new approach. And the second is that from a trial design point of view, the event rate is likely to be higher, and therefore you might get answers earlier and with a smaller clinical trial. So that's where I suspect we're going to go. But it's a challenging question, and I think that many investigators and many companies are really trying to struggle with that right now because we do have so many options. And we're not quite sure how to, first, develop these new drugs, but then really importantly, put them in the context of our existing drugs. And as you say, we're also simultaneously trying to develop superior molecular or circulating markers to guide us. So, there's so many variables that are going on right now in this field that, from my point of view, itmakes it really exciting, but it also makes it pretty complicated, both for investigators and for pharma as we try to think about how to position these going forward. But what a great problem to have, Hope, because remember when you and I started in breast cancer, pretty much all you needed to know was tamoxifen. And I think you and I also probably started at the tail end of the time when we were using androgens and progestins and agents that now have basically completely fallen out of favor.

Dr. Hope Rugo: Estrogen

Dr. Nancy Davidson: Estrogen, yeah, and your side effect profiles were not as good. So, it's a good problem to have. It's a nice situation when science can inform our clinical investigation, our clinical practice.

Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, I think it'll be fascinating to see where we end up at the end, but of course, the complexities of this include the fact that sometimes just the clinical trial design leads to a less than positive result because of the way the trial itself has been designed, which I think is the nice part about moving these earlier into treatment of high-risk disease, but also brings up the question of all sorts of areas we're not really a place to discuss today, like how the statistical design is made, et cetera, that can sometimes result in poor evaluation of excellent agents.

One of the questions that comes up, and you brought this up earlier, which I think is really important, is that we are in the era of combining our endocrine agents with targeted agents, and, oral agents, in a fascinating way, really bring up drug-drug interactions in a way that the injectable fulvestrant hasn't, and aromatase inhibitors were kind of quiet on the impacting metabolism, unlike tamoxifen. But we are seeing some drug-drug interactions and certainly the discussions about using these agents may include the question about whether or not you're having more diarrhea or nausea or fatigue or one drug causes photopsia, flashing lights, things like that. Keratitis is becoming a new toxicity to follow.  How are we going to figure out how to sequence these drugs and are they only going to work better all of them as a class in patients with ESR1 mutations in their tumors?

Dr. Nancy Davidson: I think we don't know the answer to the second question yet. That's something that really needs to be sorted out. Even if they do, that's still a really important subset of patients, assuming that we continue to start with the aromatase inhibitors, right? That's where those things really seem to emerge right now. I don't know how we're going to figure those things out. I guess that I'm hoping that maybe a couple of agents in these classes will become kind of the lead agents. And so, we'll be able to do this work with a handful of things as opposed to a whole array of things. But we'll see. I think that even within classes, obviously, these agents are going be slightly different, probably. And so it may be that one member of a class may be slightly better from a, maybe not from an efficacy point of view, but from a toxicity point of view. And we'll just have to see how it goes. I don't think I have any magic answers about that.

Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the agents work in sequence too. You know, could you use a PROTAC after an oral SERD, for example, or a CERAN? That'll be fascinating to see.

Dr. Nancy Davidson:  I'm hoping that preclinical modeling may help with that a little bit, though of course we all know that there are plenty of things that do well in preclinical models, GEMS and rodent models and PDXs, and sometimes those things translate nicely into clinical practice, but sometimes they don't.

Dr. Hope Rugo: You mentioned, Nancy, that when we started out, that it was a fairly simple decision about what endocrine therapies, and we ran out very quickly. We're seeing some of those old classes come up with new agents. And you mentioned lasofoxifene, the oral SERM that seems to have some benefits and works in the later-line setting and also can be combined with a CDK4/6 inhibitor; [and also] has data with abemaciclib. There's also a new androgen receptor agonist, enobosarm, that's being tested as well. Do you think that these older mechanisms have a future as well?

Dr. Nancy Davidson: I do. I think that because we'll be able to understand the biology better than we did in the past. A lot of our hormone therapy was pretty empiric several decades ago. But I think with better understanding of mechanisms and better understanding of what the patterns of resistance might be for a particular tumor, that we might be able to think about those things. You're right that there's a whole parallel universe right now in androgen receptor targeted therapies that we're not talking about today, both in perhaps in hormone-responsive breast cancers, but also in triple-negative breast cancers in a certain subset. And so that's an area where we probably need to be watching what our prostate cancer colleagues are doing as they develop these agents and thinking about where they might mechanistically make sense to apply in the breast cancer field. It won't be the first time that we've received insights from them because remember, prostate cancer people knew about androgen receptor mutations a really long time before we figured out that they existed in estrogen receptor as well. So, there's a nice cross talk, I think, between the prostate cancer field and the breast cancer field in that regard.

Dr. Hope Rugo:  That's an excellent point. And we learn a lot from our colleagues studying other malignancies, and prostate cancer has been a big area there for us and hopefully will help us with studying these agents because there's different toxicity profiles, of course, as well. And then you mentioned the approval of elacestrant, the first oral SERD to have regulatory approval, and it's approved in patients who have ESR1 mutations in their tumors. We're also studying it in the ELEVATE trial in combination with all of the different targeted agents, the CDK4/6 inhibitors, mTOR inhibitor, everolimus, and the PI3 kinase inhibitor, alpelisib, to really try and understand how these can be optimally combined. Would you check for ESR1 mutations at diagnosis of metastatic disease, or would you do this more after progression or start of progression of disease on an aromatase inhibitor?

Dr. Nancy Davidson: I tend to be a conservative, Hope, and so unless there's a clinical trial that might be able to be considered, I would tend to check it only after progression on the aromatase inhibitor. But I think some people are earlier adopters, and I suppose it's possible that they might want to know from the get-go. Having said that, I do think elacestrant has an approval after aromatase inhibitor, as I recall. So, presumably the patient would have to have that exposure before you would be able to act on the ESR1 mutation by administering the oral SERD. This is also a new area that may well change with time, right? You know, as we develop different agents, as the agents have different requirements or different indications, and as we perhaps have better tests, it may be things that we don't do routinely now will become very routine in the future. And perhaps in series like you talked about in a serial fashion.

Dr. Hope Rugo: Absolutely. I think that's a really important comment about how we're going to think about treating hormone receptor positive disease and potentially, you know, we have new chemo options, of course, not part of our talk discussion today and antibody drug conjugates. So, the future is certainly challenging in terms of understanding this appropriate sequencing. We need data, but it's exciting to have these options. As you pointed out, this is this is a great problem to have, you know, too many drugs with efficacy to try and understand how to use these in the most appropriate way. And as you also pointed out, the use in young women is particularly important. Whether or not you need to suppress the ovaries with all of these new agents is going to be important to understand as well as a next step. I don't know if you have specific thoughts on that area as well. I mean, that may reduce toxicity for younger women.

Dr. Nancy Davidson: I guess our approach right now has been to suppress them, but I agree with you; you wonder if you look at some of the mechanisms of action, whether that's really a requirement biologically and medically, or whether it's something that's kind of a leftover from the approval process. You know, that for the drug approval, these women were suppressed. I think we need to work that out because that's another area where certainly women could have ovaries removed. That's pretty straightforward, although it requires a surgical procedure. But otherwise use of LHRH agonists continues to be injections, right? And so, if we're trying to minimize convenience or maximize convenience and minimize toxicity for women with any stage of breast cancer, anything we can do, it seems to me to eliminate an injection is going to be a good thing. So important for us to be able to work that out as well, even though numerically it's a smaller number of women, it's obviously a very important number. population of women.

Dr. Hope Rugo: Last question for you. One question that comes up and sent to me and panels all the time is, if you have done your next generation sequencing and you see an ESR1 mutation and a P13CA mutation, what do you prioritize in terms of your choice of treatment, because we have the choice of either using elacestrant or a fulvestrant in combination with an agent targeting the PI3 kinase pathway?

Dr. Nancy Davidson: I don't know that there's a right answer to that medically right now. So, when I talk about it with patients, I suggest to them that it's probably not one or the other. It's kind of the question of which one to use first. So, we talk a little bit about side effect profiles. We talk a little bit about patient preference and neither of these drugs is devoid of problems, but sometimes patients have pretty strong feelings about which set of side effects seems the least unattractive to them or the possibility of having those side effects. And I know that if one isn't well tolerated, you can swap over to the other.

Dr. Hope Rugo: Absolutely. I think that's a very important way to think about next therapies in our era of not really knowing what's right. And this idea of shared decision-making is so incredibly important. Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your insights and knowledge with us today. I could talk to you for hours about this.

Dr. Nancy Davidson: Hope, thank you so much for the opportunity. It is an exciting area and I really enjoyed talking with you about what we know and the many things that we don't yet know, but we're working on.

Dr. Hope Rugo: Indeed, it's certainly an exciting time. Thank you to our listeners for joining us today. And thanks to the ASCO Daily News Podcast for highlighting this important area. You'll find a link to all of the studies discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much.