logo
episode-header-image
Sep 2022
3m 50s

Mike Wilson: A Sudden Drop for Stocks an...

MORGAN STANLEY
About this episode

After last week’s Fed meeting and another rate hike, both stocks and bonds dropped back to June lows. The question is, will this turn to the downside continue to accelerate?


----- Transcript -----


Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Mike Wilson, Chief Investment Officer and Chief U.S. Equity Strategist for Morgan Stanley. Along with my colleagues, bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be talking about the latest trends in the financial marketplace. It's Monday, September 26, at 11 a.m. in New York. So let's get after it. 


Last week's Fed meeting gave us the 75 basis point hike most investors were expecting, and similar messaging to what we heard at Jackson Hole a month ago. In short, the Fed means business with inflation and is willing to do whatever it takes to combat it. So why was there such a dramatic reaction in the bond and stock markets? Were investors still hoping the Fed would make a dovish pivot? Whatever the reason, both stocks and bonds are right back to their June lows, with many bellwether stocks and treasuries even lower. As we wrote a few weeks ago, we think investor hopes for a Fed pivot were misplaced, and Chair Powell has now made that crystal clear. 


Secondly, we noted last week that the only remaining hope for stocks would be if the bond market rallied at the back end on the view that the Fed was finally ahead of the curve and would win its fight against inflation, while slowing the economy materially. Instead, interest rates spiked higher, squelching any hopes for stocks. While 15.6x price earnings ratio is back to the June lows, that P/E still embeds what we think is a mispriced equity risk premium given the risk to earnings. 


Said another way, with a Fed pivot now off the table, the path on bond and equity prices will come down to growth - economic growth for bonds and earnings growth for stocks. On both counts we are pessimistic, particularly on the latter as supported by our recent cuts to earnings forecasts. We have been discussing these forecasts with clients for the past several weeks and while most are in agreement that consensus 2023 earnings estimates are too high, there is still a debate on how much. Suffice it to say, we are at the low end of client expectations. Interestingly, recent economic data have kept the economic soft landing view alive, and interest rates have moved above our rates team's year end forecast. From an equity market standpoint, that means no relief for valuations as earnings come down. This is a major reason why stocks sank to their June lows on Friday. 


Ultimately, we do think economic surprise data will likely disappoint again, but until it does there is no end in sight for the rise in 10 year yields, especially with the run off of the Fed's balance sheet increasing. As such, our rates team has raised its year end target for 10 year Treasury yields to 4% from 3.5%. This is a very tough backdrop for stocks and epitomizes our fire and ice thesis to a T. In other words, rising cost of capital and lower liquidity in the face of slower earnings growth or even outright declines. 


Finally, the Fed's historically hawkish action has led to record strength in the U.S. dollar. On a year over year basis the dollar is now up 21% and still rising. Based on our analysis that every 1% change in the dollar has a .5% impact on S&P 500 earnings growth, fourth quarter S&P 500 earnings will face an approximate 10% headwind to growth all else equal. This is in addition to the other challenges we've been discussing for months, like the pay back in demand and higher cost from inflation to name a few. 


Bottom line Part 2 of our Fire and ice thesis is now on full display, with rates and the U.S. dollar ratcheting higher, just as the negative revisions for earnings appear set to accelerate to the downside. In our view, the bear market in stocks will not be over until the S&P 500 reaches the range of our base and bear targets, i.e. 3000 to 3400 later this fall. 


Thanks for listening. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please take a moment to rate and review us on the Apple Podcast app. It helps more people to find the show.

Up next
Yesterday
Are Foreign Investors Fleeing U.S. Assets?
Our Chief Cross-Asset Strategist Serena Tang discusses whether demand for U.S. stocks has fallen and where fund flows are surging. Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Serena Tang: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I’m Serena Tang, Morgan Stanley’s Chief ... Show More
4m 56s
Jul 8
How AI Is Disrupting Defense
Arushi Agarwal from the European Sustainability Strategy team and Aerospace & Defense Analyst Ross Law unpack what a reshaped defense industry means for sustainability, ethics and long-term investment strategy.Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Ross Law: ... Show More
9m 33s
Jul 7
Have U.S. Consumers Shaken Off Tariff Concerns?
The American consumer isn’t simply pulling back. They are changing the way they spend – and save. Our U.S. Thematic and Equity Strategist Michelle Weaver digs into the data. Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Michelle Weaver: Welcome to Thoughts on the M ... Show More
4m 15s
Recommended Episodes
Jul 2023
The Fed Rate Increase
On today’s show we are taking a look at interest rates. Yesterday the Federal Reserve increased the Federal Funds rate to a range between 5.25%-5.5%.  This clearly sets the stage for short term interest rates to increase. The yield on the 10 year treasury decreased from 3.91% to ... Show More
5m 44s
Jul 2022
Why is Gold falling?
Sentiment is mixed. The S&P500 eked out small gains after a volatile session. The FOMC minutes, released yesterday, came as a confirmation that the Federal Reserve (Fed) remains fully committed to bringing inflation down, even if it means slower growth. But, the recession talk, l ... Show More
10m 58s
Jun 2024
4 Reasons Why the Stock Market Has Delivered Impressive Performance
Sarah Hansen, Morningstar Inc. markets reporter, discusses why the stock market is up today and what could cause it to fall. Preston Caldwell, senior US economist for Morningstar Research Services, explains why he thinks the Federal Reserve will cut interest rates more than once ... Show More
17m 39s
Aug 2022
Strong US jobs data hammers the recession 'optimism'
Strong US jobs data revived the Federal Reserve (Fed) hawks on Friday. The US 10-year yield jumped, and the US dollar gained. Gold gave back a part of gains, and US stocks closed in the negative, although the three major US indices closed the first week of August in the positive. ... Show More
10m 42s
Feb 2023
The Great Market Disconnect, and the Chart Master Updates His Apple Call 2/17/23
Stocks held steady to end the week, with the Dow rising 130 points, even as 10-year yields hit their highest level since November. So why don’t equity markets seem to believe the Fed when it says to get used to higher rates. Plus Apple falling below a major support level today, a ... Show More
22m 20s
Aug 2022
Analysts can't agree on where stocks are headed next!
Lack of direction is what investors will be suffering until we see clearer signs of inflation abating. And that will take time, as we must see a couple of encouraging data points to call the central banks’ inflation fight successful. The lack of clear direction is driving the mar ... Show More
11m 11s
Feb 2024
All eyes on US inflation! | MarketTalk: What’s up today? | Swissquote
The week started on a positive note on this side of the Atlantic Ocean, and on a mixed note on the American side. Federal Reserve’s (Fed) Michelle Bowman said that the rates are in a good place to keep pressure on inflation and that there is no need to ease rates soon. Likewise, ... Show More
10m 16s
Aug 2023
IBKR's Sosnick: Inflation is here until something breaks
Steve Sosnick, chief market strategist at Interactive Brokers, says investors should be thinking defensively and looking at dividend stocks rather than hoping that central bankers will pivot and start cutting rates to boost the market, because he thinks the Fed will stick with hi ... Show More
1 h
Jul 2023
Vanguard's Hard Pass on a `Soft Landing'
A rallying stock market and better-than-expected second-quarter economic growth are just the latest developments pointing Wall Street skeptics to the possibility of a US “soft landing.” That’s where the Federal Reserve gets inflation back down to around 2% without triggering a do ... Show More
38m 37s