logo
episode-header-image
Sep 2022
4m 22s

Mike Wilson: Preparing for an Icy Winter

MORGAN STANLEY
About this episode

While interest rates have already weighed on asset markets this year and growth continues to slow, the Fed seems poised to continue on its tightening path, meaning investors may need to prepare for part two of our Fire and Ice narrative.


-----Transcript-----


Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Mike Wilson, Chief Investment Officer and Chief U.S. Equity Strategist for Morgan Stanley. Along with my colleagues, bringing you a variety of perspectives, I'll be talking about the latest trends in the financial marketplace. It's Tuesday, September 6th, at 9 a.m. in New York. So let's get after it. 


At the risk of stating the obvious, 2022 has been a challenging year for stock investors of all stripes. The Russell 3000 is down approximately 18% year to date, and while growth stocks have underperformed significantly it's been no picnic for value investors either. As far as sectors only energy and utilities are up this year, and just 24% of all stocks in the Russell 3000 are in positive territory. To put that into context, in 2008, 48% of the Russell 3000 stocks were up on the year as we entered the month of September and then the bottom dropped out. Suffice it to say, this year has been historically bad for stocks. However, that is not a sufficient reason to be bullish in our view. 


As bad as has been for stocks, it's been even worse for bonds on a risk adjusted basis. More specifically, 20 year Treasury bonds are now down 24% year to date, and the Barclays AG Index is off by 11%. Finally, commodities have been a mixed bag too, with most commodities down on the year, despite heightened concerns about inflation. For example, the CRB RIND Index, which measures the spot prices of a wide range of commodities, is down 7% year to date. Cash, on the other hand, is no longer trash, especially if one has been able to take advantage of higher front end rates. 


So what's going on? In our view, asset markets are behaving right in line with the fire and ice narrative we laid out a year ago. In short, after ignoring the warning signs from inflation last year and thinking the Fed would ignore them too, asset markets quickly woke up and discounted the Fed's late but historically hawkish pivot to address the sharp rise in prices. Indeed, very rarely has the Fed tightened policy so quickly. Truth be told, as one of the more hawkish strategists on the street last December, I never would have bet the Fed would be doing multiple 75 basis point hikes this year, but here we are. And remember, don't fight the Fed. 


While the June low for stocks and bonds was an important one, we've consistently been in the camp that it wasn't the low for the S&P 500 in this bear market. Having said that, we are more confident it was the low for long term treasuries in view of the Fed's aggressive action that has yet to fully play out in the real economy. It may have also been the low for the average stock, given how bad the breadth was at that time and the magnitude of the decline in certain stocks. 


Our more pessimistic view on the major index is based on analysis that indicates all the 31% de-rating in the forward S&P 500 P/E that occurred from December was due to higher interest rates. We know this because the equity risk premium was flat during this period. Meanwhile, forward earnings estimates for the S&P 500 have come down by only 1.5%, and price earnings ratio's back up 9% from where it was. With interest rates about 25 basis points below the June highs, the equity risk premium has fallen once again to just 280 basis points. This makes little sense in a normal environment, but especially given these significant earnings cuts we think are still to come. 


With the Fed dashing hopes for a dovish pivot on this policy a few weeks ago, we think asset markets may be entering fire and ice part two. In contrast with part one, this time the decline in stocks will come mostly through a higher equity risk premium and lower earnings rather than higher interest rates. In fact, our earnings models are all flashing red for the S&P 500, and we have high confidence that the decline in forward S&P 500 earnings forecasts is far from over. 


In short, part two will be more icy than fiery, the opposite of the first half of the year. That's not to say interest rates don't matter, they do and we expect bonds to perform better than stocks in this icier scenario. Importantly, if last Thursday marked a short term low for long duration bonds, i.e. a high in yields, the S&P 500 and many stocks could get some relief again as rates come down prior to the next rounds of earnings cuts that won't begin until later this month. 


Thanks for listening. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please take a moment to rate and review us on the Apple Podcast app. It helps more people to find the show. 

Up next
Yesterday
Are Foreign Investors Fleeing U.S. Assets?
Our Chief Cross-Asset Strategist Serena Tang discusses whether demand for U.S. stocks has fallen and where fund flows are surging. Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Serena Tang: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I’m Serena Tang, Morgan Stanley’s Chief ... Show More
4m 56s
Jul 8
How AI Is Disrupting Defense
Arushi Agarwal from the European Sustainability Strategy team and Aerospace & Defense Analyst Ross Law unpack what a reshaped defense industry means for sustainability, ethics and long-term investment strategy.Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Ross Law: ... Show More
9m 33s
Jul 7
Have U.S. Consumers Shaken Off Tariff Concerns?
The American consumer isn’t simply pulling back. They are changing the way they spend – and save. Our U.S. Thematic and Equity Strategist Michelle Weaver digs into the data. Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Michelle Weaver: Welcome to Thoughts on the M ... Show More
4m 15s
Recommended Episodes
Jul 2022
Why is Gold falling?
Sentiment is mixed. The S&P500 eked out small gains after a volatile session. The FOMC minutes, released yesterday, came as a confirmation that the Federal Reserve (Fed) remains fully committed to bringing inflation down, even if it means slower growth. But, the recession talk, l ... Show More
10m 58s
Jun 2024
4 Reasons Why the Stock Market Has Delivered Impressive Performance
Sarah Hansen, Morningstar Inc. markets reporter, discusses why the stock market is up today and what could cause it to fall. Preston Caldwell, senior US economist for Morningstar Research Services, explains why he thinks the Federal Reserve will cut interest rates more than once ... Show More
17m 39s
Jul 2023
The Fed Rate Increase
On today’s show we are taking a look at interest rates. Yesterday the Federal Reserve increased the Federal Funds rate to a range between 5.25%-5.5%.  This clearly sets the stage for short term interest rates to increase. The yield on the 10 year treasury decreased from 3.91% to ... Show More
5m 44s
Feb 2024
All eyes on US inflation! | MarketTalk: What’s up today? | Swissquote
The week started on a positive note on this side of the Atlantic Ocean, and on a mixed note on the American side. Federal Reserve’s (Fed) Michelle Bowman said that the rates are in a good place to keep pressure on inflation and that there is no need to ease rates soon. Likewise, ... Show More
10m 16s
Dec 2022
Stocks Slump Ahead of Big Week For Markets 12/9/22
Major markets closed out the week in the red with the Dow notching its worst week of the quarter. But with the CPI report and the last Fed meeting of the year on deck, what can we expect from stocks next week? Plus the Chart Master says to sell energy, and Wall Street gets bullis ... Show More
22m 16s
Jul 2023
Vanguard's Hard Pass on a `Soft Landing'
A rallying stock market and better-than-expected second-quarter economic growth are just the latest developments pointing Wall Street skeptics to the possibility of a US “soft landing.” That’s where the Federal Reserve gets inflation back down to around 2% without triggering a do ... Show More
38m 37s
May 2021
Inflation risks: 'too much complacency'?
In this week’s episode of IG’s Trading the Markets podcast, IGTV’s Victoria Scholar speaks to Daniel Lacalle, chief economist at Tressis, about the post-pandemic recovery for the US economy, monetary and fiscal policy, and the potential economic risks ahead. Lacalle says there is ... Show More
18m 56s