logo
episode-header-image
Feb 2021
1h 18m

Wizards and Prophets, Ecomodernists and ...

DR. CHRIS KEEFER
About this episode

Just as the political spectrum is divided between left and right, thinking on environmental problem solving is similarly split into two rival camps exemplified by the archetypes of the Wizard and the Prophet. Award winning science writer Charles Mann explores these archetypes as personified by the father of the Green Revolution, Norman Borlaug and the intellectual godfather of the environmental movement, William Vogt. 

Crudely put wizards are foremost humanists who eschew limits believeing that our growing population and appetites can be accommodated by the wise application of decoupling technology. Prophets are foremost environmentalists who believe that carrying capacity is limited and that humans must remain within natural energy flows or risk ecosystem and civilizational collapse. 

Understanding the origins of one's opponents ideological beliefs and values goes a long way to depersonalizing a sometimes ugly debate and perhaps finding a small patch of common ground. 

Prophets who have contributed some impressive advances in natural resource stewardship such as water conservation must wrestle with an ugly history of malthusian ideas which at their worst have justified horrific campaigns of coercive population control. Despite the success of technofixes that fed billions and averted famines wizards must temper their scientific rationalism with a sociologic understanding of the dark sides of modernization such as enclosures of the commons. 

This conversation challenged my cognitive biases more then I was expecting. I hope it does the same for you.  

Up next
Oct 6
Handling the Heat
Process heat accounts for two-thirds of industrial emissions. Yet talk of decarbonization often misses the engineering realities that separate viable solutions from expensive dead ends. To understand process heat and the technologies capable of providing it, I’m joined by returni ... Show More
1h 10m
Sep 30
Nuclear Meme Stocks
Nuclear has entered its meme stock moment. Last week, Oklo hit a market capitalization of $20.7 billion—more than established nuclear giants BWXT, Curtiss-Wright, and AtkinsRéalis—despite having zero revenue, no NRC design certification, and a rejected license application. In my ... Show More
1h 6m
Sep 22
Carbon Dioxide: Earth's Thermostat
This week, award-winning science writer Peter Brannen returns to Decouple to explore the 4.5 billion-year story of carbon dioxide on Earth. Grounding our discussion is his new book, The Story of CO2 Is The Story of Everything. From the alien world of the Hadean eon to humanity's ... Show More
1h 21m
Recommended Episodes
Jan 2025
514. How to Solve All of America’s Energy Problems | Alex Epstein
Jordan Peterson sits down with philosopher, podcaster, and author Alex Epstein. They discuss the unprecedented need for energy to fuel the AI boom, the potential for abundant energy to outpace the problems it could create, the failure of the net-zero agenda, the necessity of a pr ... Show More
1h 52m
Oct 2022
Nadine Weidman, "Killer Instinct: The Popular Science of Human Nature in Twentieth-Century America" (Harvard UP, 2021)
A historian of science examines key public debates about the fundamental nature of humans to ask why a polarized discourse about nature versus nurture became so entrenched in the popular sciences of animal and human behavior. Are humans innately aggressive or innately cooperative ... Show More
1h 9m
Dec 2024
Josh Spodek, "Sustainability Simplified: The Definitive Guide to Solving All (Yes, All) Our Environmental Problems" (Amplify, 2025)
Josh Spodek disconnected his Manhattan apartment from the electric grid in May 2022. Over time, he has reduced his consumption and contribution to landfill. His new book argues that sustainability is not a sacrifice but an upgrade that can bring joy and increased quality of life. ... Show More
1h 6m
Jun 2023
Simon Sharpe, "Five Times Faster: Rethinking the Science, Economics, and Diplomacy of Climate Change" (Cambridge UP, 2023)
We need to act five times faster to avoid dangerous climate change. As Greenland melts, Australia burns, and greenhouse gas emissions continue to rise, we think we know who the villains are: oil companies, consumerism, weak political leaders. But what if the real blocks to progre ... Show More
30m 22s
Aug 24
Nick Spencer, "The Landscapes of Science and Religion: What Are We Disagreeing About?" (Oxford UP, 2025)
The relationship between science and religion has long been a heated debate and is becoming an ever more popular topic. The scientific capacity to manipulate and change humans and their environment through genetic engineering, life extension, and AI is going to take a huge leap f ... Show More
38m 48s
Aug 1
Can the State Protect Nature? w/ Rosemary Collard and Jessica Dempsey
In this episode, we talk with Jessica Dempsey and Rosemary Collard about how to think about the capitalist state not as a unified actor, but as a contradictory and often incoherent set of institutions, practices, and relationships that both authorize extraction and seek legitimac ... Show More
1h 12m
Jul 2023
#1570 The overpopulation debate is more philosophical than empirical
BestOfTheLeft.com/Support (Become a member in July for 20% off!) Air Date 7/8/2023 Today, we take a look at the dubious, ideologically-driven debate between overpopulation being a danger to the future of humanity and it being a dangerous myth obscuring the real issue of over-cons ... Show More
1h 3m
Oct 4
Gerta Keller, "The Last Extinction: The Real Science Behind the Death of the Dinosaurs" (Diversion Books, 2025)
The story behind Dr. Gerta Keller’s world-shattering scientific discovery that dinosaur extinction was NOT caused by asteroid impact, but rather by volcanic eruptions on the Indian peninsula, a discovery that highlights today’s existential threat of greenhouse gasses and climate ... Show More
59m 52s
Mar 2024
Travis Rieder, "Catastrophe Ethics: How to Choose Well in a World of Tough Choices" (Dutton, 2024)
In a world of often confusing and terrifying global problems, how should we make choices in our everyday lives? Does anything on the individual level really make a difference? In Catastrophe Ethics: How to Choose Well in a World of Tough Choices (Dutton, 2024), Travis Rieder tack ... Show More
37m 33s
Nov 2024
Harvey Whitehouse, "Inheritance: The Evolutionary Origins of the Modern World" (Harvard UP, 2024)
Each of us is endowed with an inheritance--a set of evolved biases and cultural tools that shape every facet of our behavior. For countless generations, this inheritance has taken us to ever greater heights: driving the rise of more sophisticated technologies, more organized reli ... Show More
44m 17s